SFL league poll

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Phrazz wrote:

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Boem wrote:

This thread just makes me think a lot of people cannot value items properly and as such, lose out on a lot of economical power.

And that is one of many reasons why every discussion about this topics turns into mud every single time: Because traders assume the reason people want a SFL is because they lack skills. Skills to trade. Skills about pricing. Doesn't know how to spot a good rare. Or a good crafting blue. Or how to flip etc.

It's not about that. Never was. Never will be.

For me, trading will ALWAYS be boring ass hell, no matter how good I am at it. I will NEVER take pleasure buying other peoples achievments. I do NOT play PoE to buy or sell. I play to kill stuff - progress - build - theorycraft - and, most important: Have FUN. And in my mind, "fun" does not include "boring". If I want boring, I'll go do the dishes, I do not log into PoE.

And yes, it's perfectly possible to play like that now. But playing like that, we forsake so damn much of what the game has to offer. Why is it impossible to make room for both, when there's obviously are a lot of SF players out there?

I have to agree with this. If it was about not wanting to learn, I wouldn't have even bothered with PoE. You need to learn so much in this game besides trading. But trading, I agree, is just boring, even though I learn it more and more, it doesn't get any less boring. The fun for me is finding those upgrades, not trading to build up wealth to buy whatever build I want to do. I have wealth on standard, but it just doesn't feel as good when I have bought all the gear ahead of time for a new build. There's no discovery, no unexpected enjoyment when you find something in the wild that immediately makes your character stronger.

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edit: trading isnt advertised in the game at all. its advertised by you searching for ways to trade, for you to realize its not the way you want to trade.

The way I want to trade? I don't want to trade at all. I want to be able to farm usable items for 2000 hours, instead of farming currency/chaos recipe for 100 hours, and then buy what you want.

Do I want trading to yield an advantage? Yes, of course.
Do I want playing SF to take WAY longer to reach good gear? Yes, of course.

The balance is just screwed, as very good end game rares do not drop. So it all comes to craft or buy, and we all know a SF will NEVER get enough high end orbs to craft an end game rare.

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Druga1757 wrote:

I have to agree with this. If it was about not wanting to learn, I wouldn't have even bothered with PoE. You need to learn so much in this game besides trading. But trading, I agree, is just boring, even though I learn it more and more, it doesn't get any less boring. The fun for me is finding those upgrades, not trading to build up wealth to buy whatever build I want to do. I have wealth on standard, but it just doesn't feel as good when I have bought all the gear ahead of time for a new build. There's no discovery, no unexpected enjoyment when you find something in the wild that immediately makes your character stronger.

id rather trade for a few min to get gear for a new build than play for weeks and weeks without finding that t1 unique that you need for your build. smart loot wouldnt fix this btw, it would make it worse

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id rather trade for a few min to get gear for a new build than play for weeks and weeks without finding that t1 unique that you need for your build.

And there we go, the difference between traders and SF players. Congratulations, someone finally got it.

SF players don't mind grinding 100 times more than traders. The question is: Why reward 10 mins of trading more than 1000 hours of farming?

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Phrazz wrote:

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edit: trading isnt advertised in the game at all. its advertised by you searching for ways to trade, for you to realize its not the way you want to trade.

The way I want to trade? I don't want to trade at all. I want to be able to farm usable items for 2000 hours, instead of farming currency/chaos recipe for 100 hours, and then buy what you want.

Do I want trading to yield an advantage? Yes, of course.
Do I want playing SF to take WAY longer to reach good gear? Yes, of course.

The balance is just screwed, as very good end game rares do not drop. So it all comes to craft or buy, and we all know a SF will NEVER get enough high end orbs to craft an end game rare.

you want mirrors and eternals to be removed and spawn rates of good mods to be much higher too, im assuming?

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Phrazz wrote:

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Boem wrote:

This thread just makes me think a lot of people cannot value items properly and as such, lose out on a lot of economical power.

And that is one of many reasons why every discussion about this topics turns into mud every single time: Because traders assume the reason people want a SFL is because they lack skills. Skills to trade. Skills about pricing. Doesn't know how to spot a good rare. Or a good crafting blue. Or how to flip etc.

It's not about that. Never was. Never will be.

For me, trading will ALWAYS be boring ass hell, no matter how good I am at it. I will NEVER take pleasure buying other peoples achievments. I do NOT play PoE to buy or sell. I play to kill stuff - progress - build - theorycraft - and, most important: Have FUN. And in my mind, "fun" does not include "boring". If I want boring, I'll go do the dishes, I do not log into PoE.

And yes, it's perfectly possible to play like that now. But playing like that, we forsake so damn much of what the game has to offer. Why is it impossible to make room for both, when there's obviously are a lot of SF players out there?

Why bother quoting me if your gonna leave out a relevant part?

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Boem wrote:

edit : after rereading that, i should note that i think a lot of people want an SFL because they don't wanna be bothered with actually learning all the different set-ups and potential items that will sell.

So it is far easier to ask for an SFL putting everybody at the same disadvantage as them instead of actually spending the time and using logical deduction based on meta shifts and drops.

Just like you don't enjoy trading, other people can be like minded. And as such request a league where everybody has that same "handicap".

I view trading as a means to an end and a relevant part when it comes to balancing within PoE.

If you request to create a league where this is disabled your requesting a league where every single balance aspect is reviewed and altered.

And if GGG thought it was profitable to do so, it would exist already.

As to your arguments.

There is no achievement in finding a good item within PoE. RNG determines the roll and you have no hand in getting a good or a bad roll.
So your not "buying an achievement" of somebody else.

What people do is buy an item that rolled good stats to suit there preferred play-style/current character.

And this is possible because they find items suited for other people's build. So a happy medium exist's to progress characters by creating win-win situations between players.

Your second argument, is a self imposed problem.

Your purposefully gimping your gameplay experience by playing self-found. As a result it should have inherent benefits to you as a person for doing so. (thrill, challenge, etc etc)

The game offers you the tools to explore it to it's fullest potential, you purposefully choose to not participate in that and that is your right. The problem exist's in playing self-found and having wrong expectations of the out-come.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Phrazz wrote:

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id rather trade for a few min to get gear for a new build than play for weeks and weeks without finding that t1 unique that you need for your build.

And there we go, the difference between traders and SF players. Congratulations, someone finally got it.

SF players don't mind grinding 100 times more than traders. The question is: Why reward 10 mins of trading more than 1000 hours of farming?

Clearly you do mind. else your problem would not exist.

As to the question, because the game is designed around this balance and not a self-found perspective.

RNG evens out because of trading, purposefully choosing to fight RNG head on without choosing methods to make it favor your outcome will yield questionable results.

It is that simple.

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Boem wrote:

There is no achievement in finding a good item within PoE. RNG determines the roll and you have no hand in getting a good or a bad roll.
So your not "buying an achievement" of somebody else.

What people do is buy an item that rolled good stats to suit there preferred play-style/current character.

this is exactly what i meant. its not too unlikely that ill never in my time playing find a shavs. so how exactly am i ever supposed to make a "good" "working" lowlife build then?
for rare items, i can understand the SFL, atleast partly, but for certain uniques that are just that rare yet build enabling, it would completely cut me out of about 50%(aka too many) of all available builds

^My emphasis was on the "achievement" part phrazz seems to be hung up on on a personal level.

There is no achievement in picking up a rare, using an identify scroll and it rolling good mods.

Neither for a self-found player using the identify scroll or a trader.

It's fun to loot an upgrade, for sure, but it's not an achievement.

It's also fun to experiment with different builds and having that option enabled due to trade.

It can be fun to buy an upgrade for your character when logic dictates the chances of you looting it personally are to slim to consider.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

^My emphasis was on the "achievement" part phrazz seems to be hung up on on a personal level.

There is no achievement in picking up a rare, using an identify scroll and it rolling good mods.

Neither for a self-found player using the identify scroll or a trader.

It's fun to loot an upgrade, for sure, but it's not an achievement.

It's also fun to experiment with different builds and having that option enabled due to trade.

It can be fun to buy an upgrade for your character when logic dictates the chances of you looting it personally are to slim to consider.

Peace,

-Boem-

my emphasis was rather on finding build enabling uniques. but yeah, your point stands, as to bring the amount of "achievements" (ive possibly had like idk 5? of them in all my time playing) they would need to improve spawn rates of t3-t1 mods. and then the "achievement" part of it would be taken away even further.

to Boem:

If "profitability" were the driving force for what GGG implemented, we wouldn't have pvp.

The problem with the whole trading/win/win situation for players is GGG didn't support that at all. Trade chat and forum posts isn't even a bare bones system. You end up relying on rng to find buyers and sellers. It's only the existence of poe.trade and procurement that makes trading efficient for players.

The existence of poe.trade also means trading is far more efficient than it is natively implemented in PoE. That already alters any balance. We have standard with a very different economy than temp leagues, HC with different economies than SC. Either they are balancing for multiple league types (I highly doubt it), or they aren't. If it's the former then there's already precedence, and a SFL can be balanced accordingly. If it's the latter, then it doesn't matter as different leagues aren't balanced any differently anyway.

The game is balanced around trading, but it could be balanced around self-found as well. Afterall, the game is designed around PvE, yet GGG altered the game mechanics to better suit PvP play.