I am annoyed with TS for the wrong reasons.

It's wierd to hear all those claims "Split Arrow is on par with Tornado Shot".
A simple math is here.
Split Arrow deals 80% base damage, while Tornado Shot deals 110%. Well, SA has 76% increased phys. damage, so it averages to 95-100% base damage (assuming physical attack - for elemental bow TS clearly wins).
With Chain/GMP both get 50% damage penalty.
So, Split Arrow launches 6 arrows, each of them hits up to 3 times, dealing 48% base damage = up to 864% damage to all enemies.
Tornado Shot launches 5 arrows, each of them splits into 3 arrows, dealing 55% base damage = up to 990% base damage.

The only real benefit SA has there, is Chain's "homing" mechanic, which makes it more probable to hit more targets. But that doesnt matter much, unless you oneshot enemies (and then discussion about the best skill is pointless).

But look - it assumes you hit a pretty large pack of mobs. When you hit a small pack, numbers will be: Split Arrow - 48*3 = 144% (maximum damage per mob)
Tornado Shot - 55*5 = 275% (maximum damage per mob)

And against a single target:
SA - 48%
TS - 55*5 = 275%

SA/Chain is blown out.

Also note - i didnt even included pierce into equation. With it (and Drillneck, probably), TS is clearly a winner there against pack of ANY size. But Drillneck isnt the only "game in a town". A corrupted quiver with "adds an additional arrow" works far better for Tornado Shot, as you can replace GMP with LMP and get far higher per-hit damage. This per-hit damage could be used to add powerful proliferated burns from Herald of Ash, for example. Futhermore, extra 5/6-link (free because you dont need 1-target skill) can be used for extra auras/triggers/whatever you want. And what happens when we get Drillneck with +1 arrow? Right, total PWNAGE.

So, you have a choice - either use skill (SA) that's good for single job (AoE) and sucks at all others (small packs, single target), or use skill (TS), that is just as good for that job, but also good for every other job imaginable?

And how can one claim TS be not OP, when both math and facts show otherwise?

nope


try making a fireball build that does 4x the theoretical damage of an arc build, and then watch the arc build clear a map twice as fast.

The problem is not TS, the real problem is the game. This game has some unfixable annoyances forcing you to use TS-like skills:

-Desync.

-Absurd Damage Spikes.

-FPS drops, lag and performace issues in a lot of situations/environments.

-Absurdly low drop rates.

Making no-ranged no-crit no-op-gear no-fast-leech builds very dangerous in comparison on end game. More if you want to do magic find.

Path of Exile had the oportunity to become one of the best games ever created in this genre. It's an example of the difficulty of doing a game even if you have very good ideas you have to execute them, and GGG failed on that. Maybe in Path of Exile 2 with a new engine, who knows.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

nope


try making a fireball build that does 4x the theoretical damage of an arc build, and then watch the arc build clear a map twice as fast.

Fireball projectiles are slow, while arc is fast (instant?), but that doesnt apply to SA/TS, as their projectile speeds are the same. Their AoE are also the same/comparable.

not true, chain forces the collateral arrows to go towards other mobs , the collateral arrows from nado shots simply spit out in random directions

this can cause the arrows to miss some mobs where as there is a much greater chance that a chain split arrow will simply hit and kill everything , thus reducing the number of shots needed to clear a particular mob group.

the retarded damage potential of crit ensures that the numerical dps differences between nado shot and spit arrow are irrelevant as both will one shot the low hp mobs regardless.


if you go the pierce route then split arrow at the very least has better off screen potential

not playing ranger, stop QQ , no1 gives a shit its pve game

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

not true, chain forces the collateral arrows to go towards other mobs , the collateral arrows from nado shots simply spit out in random directions

this can cause the arrows to miss some mobs where as there is a much greater chance that a chain split arrow will simply hit and kill everything , thus reducing the number of shots needed to clear a particular mob group.

Well, that's true, to certain degree, but chain's AoE (for target search) isnt so great, really. When you face a dense pack, well-placed TS will be better to clear it, because of shotgunning and TS ability to "explode" inside the pack, which greatly increases the number of hits, too.
If pack isnt dense (mobs spread all over FoW), then chain may not work, TS wont be impressive there too, though.
As for offscreen kills, TS works no worse than SA, assuming you dont use zoomhack.

Another benefit of TS shotgunning is that when just a single enemy left alive (usually - due to misses), it dies even faster, than whole pack. But when a single mob left alive for SA, it's damn hard to kill. Of course, you can use another skill for single target - and it's intended. But TS removes the need of another, 1-target, skill, which hurts balance.

The fact is, all the ranger clear speed records are achieved with split arrow, not tornado shot. Doesn't matter what on screen DPS shows, in game vs actual mobs, split is a little better AOE skill than tornado shot is. Tornado shot makes up for it with it's superior single target, so it's a trade off. But it's not OP lol.

And I agree with a previous poster. If Split arrow had better graphics and sound effects, I'd use it. The only reason I use TS is honestly because it looks and sounds cooler. It's not better...

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

not true, chain forces the collateral arrows to go towards other mobs , the collateral arrows from nado shots simply spit out in random directions

this can cause the arrows to miss some mobs where as there is a much greater chance that a chain split arrow will simply hit and kill everything , thus reducing the number of shots needed to clear a particular mob group.

Well, that's true, to certain degree, but chain's AoE (for target search) isnt so great, really. When you face a dense pack, well-placed TS will be better to clear it, because of shotgunning and TS ability to "explode" inside the pack, which greatly increases the number of hits, too.
If pack isnt dense (mobs spread all over FoW), then chain may not work, TS wont be impressive there too, though.
As for offscreen kills, TS works no worse than SA, assuming you dont use zoomhack.

Another benefit of TS shotgunning is that when just a single enemy left alive (usually - due to misses), it dies even faster, than whole pack. But when a single mob left alive for SA, it's damn hard to kill. Of course, you can use another skill for single target - and it's intended. But TS removes the need of another, 1-target, skill, which hurts balance.

I appreciate what you are saying, it would be stupid of me to say "you are absolutely wrong" because its situational, preference, theres factors that make it not a black and white issue. In my experience split chain clears as fast as nado, sometimes worse, sometimes better. Other people think split is the winner, and theres people who think nado wins.

split pierce has theoretically more dps potential than chain, but in practice I think chain is way more effective dps. Some people disagree, I know people like HvR agree with me that chain is superior. tornado is a way better single target for sure, but bow chars have two 6links, and puncture is one of the best single target skills in the entire game, so I feel like not needing a single target isnt a big deal, my nado ranger still uses puncture because why wouldnt she?



Ultimately I think the fact that were are having this conversation, that theres differing opinions says that bow skills are not quite in the unbalanced state that some think they are. If tornado is the best is a debatable opinion, so even if it was technically true its obviously not significantly far ahead of other skills.

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kepa1110 wrote:

Making no-ranged no-crit no-op-gear no-fast-leech builds very dangerous in comparison on end game. More if you want to do magic find.

what would you call op-gear? I'm currently having fun with a 2h rt cycloner, which is definetly more stable than ll wander or st, even if he clears a bit slower, but I just invested like 10ex into the build compared to 200 for the ll build...