Protecting your "PRECIOUS" economy ain't working so give up and fix desync instead

"

Vincendra wrote:

Still didn't see any reliable source (which would be a statement of GGG according numbers of people left and joined over the course of the last few expansions).

Also, GGG stated, that the average account does finish act 1 before "quitting". I can not find the statement at the moment, but I'll link it as soon as I find it.

So, while "desync" might be a factor for the average account, there are many other factors with the same potency as desync which leads to people discontinueing with the game.

All I see are personal attack onto people defending GGGs stance and advances they had with desync allready. It is much better then it was in Open Beta.

1. Just because it isn't directly from GGG doesn't mean it isn't reliable.

2. Yes, other factors cause people to quit too. Nobody disputes that. But desync is one of the prime factors, and there are thousands of testimonials to that effect all over the forums since this game came out.

3. Nobody faults GGG for trying to improve the system--in fact, we wish they would do more. The problem is that what they have done so far simply isn't enough. Maybe they can find a way that doesn't require client side trust, but such a solution hasn't presented itself yet, and limited client trust IS an option that would work.

4. The personal attacks aren't because they defend GGG, but because they make idiotic statements and weak arguments (like trying to look through people's files to find dirt that isn't in any way related to the topic).

"

Vincendra wrote:

Still didn't see any reliable source (which would be a statement of GGG according numbers of people left and joined over the course of the last few expansions).

Also, GGG stated, that the average account does finish act 1 before "quitting". I can not find the statement at the moment, but I'll link it as soon as I find it.

So, while "desync" might be a factor for the average account, there are many other factors with the same potency as desync which leads to people discontinuing with the game.

All I see are personal attack onto people defending GGGs stance and advances they had with desync already. It is much better then it was in Open Beta.

 I didn't create this thread for personal attacks against anyone defending GGG. All I know is what I experience playing PoE solo since my 2 best friends quit back in the summer of 2013 over this. Hey GGG, my 2 best friends (husband and wife BFFL) that I met in my 1st year in college in 1980... yes not a typo... 1980, went out and bought 3 copies of D3 (before we even had a clue as to how bad it was) and then they bought D3:RoS and we played it through starting over again with new builds (loosely speaking... I played a different class) and finally stopped after playing the endgame quests and rifts. I had such high hopes that our D2/D3 playing experience would transfer over and continue with PoE (read here: Good News GGG..., More Good news GGG... plus 1 bad news) but alas it did not (read here: More Good News GGG (part 3)... not quite). Since then we played TL2 and that was fun but it's not a long term arpg as PoE is.

 The whole point here is that today I continue to solo PoE and if I am ever to entice my 2 BFFL GGG is going to have to provide a much better playing experience (significantly lower desync).

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

"

Vincendra wrote:

Still didn't see any reliable source (which would be a statement of GGG according numbers of people left and joined over the course of the last few expansions).

Also, GGG stated, that the average account does finish act 1 before "quitting". I can not find the statement at the moment, but I'll link it as soon as I find it.

So, while "desync" might be a factor for the average account, there are many other factors with the same potency as desync which leads to people discontinueing with the game.

All I see are personal attack onto people defending GGGs stance and advances they had with desync allready. It is much better then it was in Open Beta.

1. Just because it isn't directly from GGG doesn't mean it isn't reliable.

2. Yes, other factors cause people to quit too. Nobody disputes that. But desync is one of the prime factors, and there are thousands of testimonials to that effect all over the forums since this game came out.

3. Nobody faults GGG for trying to improve the system--in fact, we wish they would do more. The problem is that what they have done so far simply isn't enough. Maybe they can find a way that doesn't require client side trust, but such a solution hasn't presented itself yet, and limited client trust IS an option that would work.

4. The personal attacks aren't because they defend GGG, but because they make idiotic statements and weak arguments (like trying to look through people's files to find dirt that isn't in any way related to the topic).

1.) Apes can fly. Source: my neighbour.

2.) Stop pulling that argument without giving hard facts as in GGG EXPLICATLY GIVING NUMBERS BACKED UP THROUGH SURVIEYS OF QUITTING PLAYERS STATING THAT THEY QUIT BECAUSE OF DESYNC.

3.) clienttrust is no option. Please, watch other online MMOs and ARPGs and how cheaters will abuse every inch they are given. It was allreeady discussed how trusting the client even only playerposition-wise would lead to cheating in races (as seen as in the maphacks allready) and for purposes of invulnerability (giving fals information to the server about your position so monster would not hit you), making HC a joke. Those severe downsides do not balance out the upside of lessdesync AT ALL.

4.) Don't try to argue for personal attacks. There is no place for those in arguments. Rather bring FACTS (as in OFFICIAL GGG NUMBERS) of how "badly" desync influences GGGs income.

All I see you guys do is give arguments without any backing up with REAL EVIDENCE of players leaving because of desync, because of your selfish request for more client trust without thinking about the consequences for all other players who are happy with the game as it is now.

You also do not trust GGG a bit that they will get a better netcode over time. GGG is not blizzard and has not the funds to do it as fast.

So stop being so selfish and claim "I WANT NO DESYNC DON'T CARE ABOUT OTHERS!!!" when clearly the players, who enjoy the competitive side (races/hc/ladder) would suffer way more if the client was trusted through the influx of new cheating methods.

"

Xavderion wrote:

You and others claim that people quit the game mostly because of desync. I claim that it has other, less complicated reasons and supply a link that supports my claim :)

I don't remember making that claim personally, but it's the most likely reason anyways given the information available.
My point is that it's clearly a huge problem and one that doesn't exist for any reasonable purpose.

"

Vincendra wrote:

Still didn't see any reliable source (which would be a statement of GGG according numbers of people left and joined over the course of the last few expansions).

Also, GGG stated, that the average account does finish act 1 before "quitting". I can not find the statement at the moment, but I'll link it as soon as I find it.

So, while "desync" might be a factor for the average account, there are many other factors with the same potency as desync which leads to people discontinueing with the game.




All I see are personal attack onto people defending GGGs stance and advances they had with desync allready. It is much better then it was in Open Beta.

What does any of this have to do with the discussion? Seriously.

"

Vincendra wrote:

1.) Apes can fly. Source: my neighbour.

2.) Stop pulling that argument without giving hard facts as in GGG EXPLICATLY GIVING NUMBERS BACKED UP THROUGH SURVIEYS OF QUITTING PLAYERS STATING THAT THEY QUIT BECAUSE OF DESYNC.

3.) clienttrust is no option. Please, watch other online MMOs and ARPGs and how cheaters will abuse every inch they are given. It was allreeady discussed how trusting the client even only playerposition-wise would lead to cheating in races (as seen as in the maphacks allready) and for purposes of invulnerability (giving fals information to the server about your position so monster would not hit you), making HC a joke. Those severe downsides do not balance out the upside of lessdesync AT ALL.

4.) Don't try to argue for personal attacks. There is no place for those in arguments. Rather bring FACTS (as in OFFICIAL GGG NUMBERS) of how "badly" desync influences GGGs income.

All I see you guys do is give arguments without any backing up with REAL EVIDENCE of players leaving because of desync, because of your selfish request for more client trust without thinking about the consequences for all other players who are happy with the game as it is now.

You also do not trust GGG a bit that they will get a better netcode over time. GGG is not blizzard and has not the funds to do it as fast.

So stop being so selfish and claim "I WANT NO DESYNC DON'T CARE ABOUT OTHERS!!!" when clearly the players, who enjoy the competitive side (races/hc/ladder) would suffer way more if the client was trusted through the influx of new cheating methods.

This is just the biggest load I've ever read on the forums.

1. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE LEFT POE BCUZ OF DESYNC. STFU ABOUT THIS ALREADY

2. Client trust IS an option. How about you "stop pulling that argument without giving hard facts". Your biggest argument for this is cheating in fucking races. Races are a small subset of POE and it would be easily detectable to discover positional speed cheats at that. Characters have a move speed limit defined by their characters "move speed". The words you are saying are fucking insane.

3. GGG themselves don't have "the facts" you are looking for because people aren't required to fill out a fucking survey when they quit a game. Why the fuck are you asking for shit that doesn't exist?

[Removed by Support]

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Legatus1982 wrote:

[Removed by Support]

No one forcing you to be on the forums, right :>?

"

Vincendra wrote:

1.) Apes can fly. Source: my neighbour.

2.) Stop pulling that argument without giving hard facts as in GGG EXPLICITLY GIVING NUMBERS BACKED UP THROUGH SURVEYS OF QUITTING PLAYERS STATING THAT THEY QUIT BECAUSE OF DESYNC.

3.) client trust is no option. Please, watch other online MMOs and ARPGs and how cheaters will abuse every inch they are given. It was already discussed how trusting the client even only player position-wise would lead to cheating in races (as seen as in the maphacks already) and for purposes of invulnerability (giving false information to the server about your position so monster would not hit you), making HC a joke. Those severe downsides do not balance out the upside of less desync AT ALL.

4.) Don't try to argue for personal attacks. There is no place for those in arguments. Rather bring FACTS (as in OFFICIAL GGG NUMBERS) of how "badly" desync influences GGGs income.

All I see you guys do is give arguments without any backing up with REAL EVIDENCE of players leaving because of desync, because of your selfish request for more client trust without thinking about the consequences for all other players who are happy with the game as it is now.

You also do not trust GGG a bit that they will get a better netcode over time. GGG is not blizzard and has not the funds to do it as fast.

So stop being so selfish and claim "I WANT NO DESYNC DON'T CARE ABOUT OTHERS!!!" when clearly the players, who enjoy the competitive side (races/hc/ladder) would suffer way more if the client was trusted through the influx of new cheating methods.

1. Toasters can fly too. Source: After Dark screen saver fron early 1990s company Berkley Systems. Why yes, monkeys can fly. We've know about that since 1939. Doesn't make it good (Dorothy can attest to that). Same with desync. GGG can technically state that desync is the result of tight server control to prevent/minimize hacking and economy destruction (server side authority for everything). Doesn't make for a better playing experience.

2. Of course there will never be any real numbers of how many players quit playing PoE because they desynced 1 too many times (or a million and 1 too many times). All GGG can do is track daily usage. I guess if they kept a date of last played for an account they could use it to show how many accounts are over 1 year old since last played as a yardstick. But we can infer from the high number of posts about this going back into CB PoE that desync is a serious problem. So you are correct that there are no hard numbers to show what percent of players quit out of desync frustration but I have to believe it is sizable. Doesn't matter in the long run except that GGG is losing out on a ton of MTX's with lost players.

3. Of course moving position/movement code from the server to the client without adding anything to protect it is begging for it to be hacked. Duh!!! In a previous follow up post I stated that some kind of code thread to self-monitor the client code and then halt the client if a hack is detected was needed. Incidentally, how is GGG able to detect Maphack (they must have added something to the client to detect it)?. Yes, that means multi-threading the client (which should be utilized anyway to better harness our multi-core cpu's for particle effect performance and other fps killing visual effects) and that is much more difficult to debug. But GGG has to do something like that if there is ever going to be a future PoE with lower desync.

4. Asking for hard numbers to make a point is not required and you know you are asking for something that nobody could have. How could GGG know why a player quits. Desync? Not rewarding enough? Too much grind to get a build to level 100 (real life is more important than PoE life)? Trading is a pain in the ass neck? Content difficulty walls? Too easy (not many would be in that category)? Burnout? No one is a mind reader (I guess GGG could do some polling to get an idea). Suffice to say that GGG has lost a boatload of players over the problems of desync. And let's say for this discussion that the % of players that have quit over desync is low. That just means that GGG has a bigger problem on their hands. Either way you want to view it desync is bad, plain and simple.

I don't envy the GGG devs one bit as they have themselves in a bad way with making a low desync arpg but yet not open up themselves to more hacks. There should be a middle ground in all this "action prediction" mess. I just hope through clever programming that GGG can produce a new server/client model that reduces desync but doesn't give the farm economy away.

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4. Asking for hard numbers to make a point is not required...

Just wanted to reiterate this. The only reason he doesn't like the numbers given (under the excuse of not coming from GGG) is that it shows which side of the argument the facts rest: Desync is harmful to the game in a tangible way.

4. Asking for hard numbers to make a point is not required and you know you are asking for something that nobody could have. How could GGG know why a player quits. Desync? Not rewarding enough? Too much grind to get a build to level 100 (real life is more important than PoE life)? Trading is a pain in the ass neck? Content difficulty walls? Too easy (not many would be in that category)? Burnout? No one is a mind reader (I guess GGG could do some polling to get an idea). Suffice to say that GGG has lost a boatload of players over the problems of desync. And let's say for this discussion that the % of players that have quit over desync is low. That just means that GGG has a bigger problem on their hands. Either way you want to view it desync is bad, plain and simple.

[/quote]

Then dont claim desync is THE BIGGEST FACTOR for people quitting POE when you don't have numbers helping this argument.

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Suffice to say that GGG has lost a boatload of players over the problems of desync.

As they did with many other aspects of the game, which might be even more pressing to fix then desync and without opening the floodgates for cheaters.

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That just means that GGG has a bigger problem on their hands. Either way you want to view it desync is bad, plain and simple.

I never denied that. Giving the client more trust is not an option though.