The most logical argument against legacies
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Legacy items are completely fine. You just jelly.
IGN: Perpetual_War / Malacath_
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I like to play game as it is intended with all new changes so I am rather playing with nerfed or buffed items. As a working guy with other hobbies I don't have time to play so often to get my character during challenge leagues to state whem I am satisfy with it. That's why standard league is my main league. I am ok with guys using OP legacy gear. I only hate legacies because for many people it's one of reasons why they call permanemt leagues the trash leagues. :F
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who cares, don't like them, don't use them!
they don't exist in challeng leagues and how does other peoples gameplay in standard affect you in any way apart from jealousy over not having them? cut this crap out already and move on. first world problems... | |
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The 'axioms' listed are not a priori.
" Kaom's Heart with its 1000 life was neither unwanted or a mistake. There was a percentage of players who felt it was OP, just as there was for Shav's. Many people felt/feel that the tiny nerf given to Shav's still leaves it as OP. " They can be changed because everyone and their grandma's dog's fleas are using them. This was the case with Poison Arrow and Fire Trap in races. Poison Arrow received numerous buffs after the initial nerf, because it wasn't OP in the first place. They can also be changed because of the way they will interact with new monsters/mods/gems/items/passives. IOW - they could make part of a challenge trivial. The game is not strictly balanced around killing power vs character survival vs clearing speed. There is also the PvP aspect, Racing considerations, and the aforementioned over reliance of an item as BIS. There is also a consideration of effects on trade, as was evidenced by GGG's explanation of the loss of the hybrid master crafting. It wasn't because the items were too powerful, it was because they were effecting trade too much. " They can also be done to mollify player complaints - as was the case with loot distribution options compared to GGG's original "loot tension" intent. They can be done to make other items (especially new uniques) more attractive. " Aside from the "logical" premise being flawed, this argument is additionally invalid because it ignores legacy gems, legacy leveling, and most importantly legacy affixes on rares. Under the assumed axioms above, every single time GGG makes balance changes in a patch, they would likely need to nerf or buff a vast number of rares and uniques. That the complaints about legacies are ALWAYS limited to unique items
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when not specified, it is implied, and usually confirmed when examples are mentioned or rebutted. The above argument doesn't specify uniques - yet, but so far, they all end that way
" Even **IF** your axioms were true, the stated assumption is not a logical conclusion of them.
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This statement tries to disprove all possible arguments with a limited set of arguments. It would be like stating - Logic A is true, therefore no Logic B can possibly exist. Even if Logic A is true, you must still prove that Logic A is ALWAYS true. While that is possible with mathematical proofs, under the limited sets of mathematical rules, there isn't a consensus method of doing so for anything else. If there was, science could progress much more quickly, because they wouldn't have to keep testing and retesting various conditions - see subjects like Modified Gravity, Whether Black Holes can really exist, Whether time really exists etc as examples where a lot has been "proven" but never conclusively.
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The scientists who dispute whether time exists at all, still have to deal with the concept of a directional "time" arrow for their static universe in which time is non-existant.
Many of the unique items in Diablo 2, for instance, were horrible for balance, but very good for the game, as they drove player interest, allowed different builds and made the game more fun. The "logic" listed above has multiple parts in each line. You'll need to break them apart and prove each, one at a time. There's also no conditions posed for what makes the game "better". Is it faster clear time? Is it more loot? Is it better graphics? Is it more difficult content? Some players have stated that what they want most is reward versus challenge. Others have said better optimization (more FPS, graphics options, less desync etc) Some have said a better trade interface. The status of legacy items doesn't affect any of those priorities. " Standard is NOT a new ladder league. It was never set up to be new, fresh, and sparkly clean with optimal balance. I enjoy standard as well, but I do not look for perfection in this so called "balance" with it. At some point GGG may have the ability to offer legacy skill trees, so players don't have to redo their characters. I believe there is a significant number of players that like their characters the way they are and don't want to have to redo them. If GGG offered to let the character keep and follow the existing skill tree, many would probably choose that. That GGG periodically redoes the skill tree, doesn't mean the new skill tree is more "balanced" than the old skill tree. If that were always the case, than we are ALL playing OP skill trees, AND the game is ALWAYS in OP mode because of that, and could never be balanced. Check and mate. PoE Origins - Piety's story http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2081910 Last edited by DalaiLama on Jan 21, 2015, 7:04:24 AM
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" When the Legacy Debates were at their peak (far more posts, more passion and fresh considerations) Kaom's still had it's 1000 life. Very few of the highest level players were using Kaom's, and it wasn't a question of having access to it. It simply wasn't Best in Slot. It is/was significantly better in slot, than many random rares. This, is essentially what most unique items offer. A standardized point that a player can build around. Wurm's Molt for intance - isn't the best leeching item, or the best belt, but it is a very convenient way for a character to get some dual leech until they can get the gear they really want to use. Tabula Rasa - isn't Best in Slot by any means. Any six link body armor with the right colors, can be better with the use of a single transmute gem. How often is Tabula Rasa used? Why is it still in the ex range instead of 15 chaos? It is convenient, and predictable. NOT OP. Yet .... at the peak of the Legacy/Anti-Legacy Debates, there was significant concern that Tabula Rasa was game breakingly OP. PoE Origins - Piety's story http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2081910
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" legacy items are not the ideal solution, but it's the best one atm. imho these are the real biggest mistake
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non gg wealthy pvp in standard is always going to be fucked with or without legacy, too much accumulated wealth. The idea of legacies being in the way is just a little bit of it. GGG have to have pvp in standard because people have built up items there they want to use, but its a legacy league and its down to the community to figure out ok, this league pvp is only balanced for old rich people, this other league pvp is balanced for new and old players alike. Why dont you want to go do in in a new league? Because you already got a stash of little gears built up that you want to use to be more powerful on a perm league? Well so do other people, and thats exactly what you are bitching about.
I dont think they do want to remove them at all, I think they like them in the game. Im not a fan of comic books, but people collect them and having out of print ones in the market etc makes it more fun, as time goes on things you bought while in print go out of print and your collection becomes more valuable as a result. Since standard is inherently unfair and imbalanced due to its age its more fun to have alternate arts, legacies, league only uniques etc that make the economy and game more interesting. Standard wont be balanced at all if you take these things out, so all you do is make the game worse without achieving anything. They may be broken items, but theres always broken items and builds in game. Legacy Kaoms or Coil is no more broken than a current Mjolner, but they became a diversity problem. Everyone was using them for a time on too many different builds so for the sake of build diversity and freeing players up to make new builds with different chests they got the nerf bat. They were changed to shift the meta and make all the "omg nerf kaoms!!!" people shut up about it, not because they were broken on a level beyond everything else. People worked for their standard pvp gear, so theres pvp in standard. People worked for their uniques so they get to keep their legacy items in standard. They want to respect the work people have put in, its down to the players to decide ok, as a community we dont credit standard with being fair and so for the fair pvp game, for the fair pve game we go tof resh leagues. The moment you say you want a fair game for PvE but you dont like new leagues you are full of shit because theres players starting out right now who you have an economic advantage over in standard, the reason you dont go to a temp league is because you want to keep YOUR old shit but you dont want other people whos old shit is better than yours to do the same. You want a level playing field the only way you get it is with a fresh server, which GGG provides constantly. If you care about standard then you have more reason than anyone to care about the other leagues. A HC player dies he essentially loses his stuff, you dont, you care about standard so your dead hc gear goes back home. End of a temp league the league only players lose everyting, you dont, it all goes back home and you get to keep everything forever in a league you give a shit about. Stop being pussies and go play a new league, sry you dont have all your bullshit old gear that makes the entire game easymode and you actually have to play the real game again without your perm league gear to carry you. Thats what you are asking for isnt it? Fairness? A fair server where no one is penalized for being new by not having a stock of gear and currency? Seems to me like you want to have your cake and eat it if you are talking about fairness in a permanent league, you want to maintain unfair advantages you get from being a long term perm player but you dont want ones you already missed out on to exist. |
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I can't believe some of these posts.
It's called dumpster league because when the real leagues finish (you know the ones without heavy RMT, bots, legacies, etc...) end, everyone dumps their trash into them. There is absolutely no reason to ever play standard unless you are a RMT and want to feel like a god with full mirrored gear and legacy for a few minutes until you realize no one cares what you do in standard league. The whole excuse of "I'm a 40 year old working man with 5 kids and I can only play 5 minutes a day!" is BS. Why are you playing an online only competitive/ladder/race based ARPG if you can't even spend an hour a day to play it? It's like playing golf but never getting off the driving range and saying that you are playing the game. Even at a casual 2 hours a day, you can have a character in mid level maps in 2 weeks on BL/Torment. |
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"PoE doesn't have to be competitive. Also some of us like to play multiple games instead of focusing on just PoE. | |
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"They are abd for the game".
Whoa, what an argument... |
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