The most logical argument against legacies

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mucker wrote:

If only there was some way to play this game in a league without legacy items!

yes if only they would free us from their tyranny lol... oh wait... lol

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mucker wrote:

If only there was some way to play this game in a league without legacy items!

not understanding the opener post - comments anyway.

he does not have a problem with them being on standart.
he has a problem with the shere existance of the items themselves.
from a developing or playing point of view - legacy items are simply op turds that are incredibly expensive 90% of the time due to not being able to drop anymore logically.

500 or 1000life is a fucking HUGE difference
thats the difference of dying and never ever dying to ANYTHING , because youve so much life you can play for two.

now how is that a problem?
lets say you are a powerdriven person in an arpg.
you want to feel powerful.
now due to these items existing and the monopoly on them through RMT +- mirrored items achieved through massive duping and other funny shit like botfarms - you feel powerless as a singularity.

you know these items exist but there is no way for you to get them unless you pay up , prefered in cash or 100-300exalts anyway because why not fuck you right?!

okay so imagine you dislike this scenario which is only common sense , because that is akin to real life world economy problems we face today but not to get too deep into your little heads i´ll be softly.

op items exist and they shouldn´t exist because they drive powerdriven gamers away that want to achieve the toptier by their own without hacking rmt or slavelabouring for months to halfway get there legit.

then here comes GGG and takes away IIQ
then ask yourself why RMT is still rampant and cheaters get a slap on the wrist.

i say it again what i said over a year ago - one hand washes another.
tinfoil 4 life

I have a legacy



Followed by IIQ Gems, And i do not understand how these are breaking the game, or is someone just jealous they were not around for them?

Oh could i add



Is a legacy now also, can you see it destroying someones fun?

I thought so.

please do not say that "nobody" wants legacy items.

and that "everyone" wants legacy items removed.


ive been playing a while and I play quite a bit.
I do not have a legacy shavs or a legacy kaoms..

but I do have some legacy items I have been able to
get my hands on through drop or trade both before AND after
the item went "legacy"

I would prefer to keep mine.

thanks. :)

I for one wouldn't mind all legacies being changed across the board, and I'm saying that as a relatively wealthy player who can afford pretty much whichever legacy item I desire.

edit: changing all legacies across the board would probably do more worse than good, and piss the hell out of people who spent multiple divines to get their perfectly rolled unique only to have it rerolled so yeah, probably not the best idea

no

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Soepkieken wrote:

GGG makes items into legacies, with which they admit a certain mistake. Keeping that mistake in the game doesn't sound like what they stand for: an independent, creative and idealistic company, only concerned with the quality of their game.

"GGG doesn't do exactly what I want, therefore I will say something over dramatic about their ideals"

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Antnee wrote:

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Richeart wrote:

2. Fixing this problem using my solution would not be away from any player. Thus this is clearly a flaw that should be fixed if technologically and economically possible.

Subjective.

1. Fixing this problem
A) Tell me how problems that legacies cause for pvp, economy, ladder and party play are subjective. Party play maybe but I would definitely want to hear you opinion on other three. (and read the thread before replying)
B) Even if they would be subjective, it does remove the notable disatisfaction on legacies amongs the playerbase, which in turn is very non subjective problem for GGG to deal with (not doing anything is of course one way)

2. using my solution would not be away from any player
How my solution is subjective? As I said nobody loses in my solution (at least any player) so it is objectively better than the current situation. Go and see it. Moreover if you see problem in it point it out, try to refine the solution or create a better one instead of just giving such ambiguous reply which to me seems just an attempt to derail the discussion.

3. Thus this is clearly a flaw that should be fixed if technologically and economically possible.
If there is problem, subjective or not, that can be fixed so that nobody loses, it clearly should be fixed. I really wonder how you can disagree with this.

Do legacy items haunt your sleep that much? Cmoon.. If other people have it and you don't, move on mate. Most of these legacy items seem to be overnerfed from the "balances" that they did so far anyway. Kaom's heart, BoR etc. And for standard league, I play there to be able to have fun with 1000 hp kaoms, 500 ES Shavronnes, 670 ES Titanium Shields and all them GG Mirrored Gears so whenever I make a build, I can get the very best items and push that build to the limits in my stay in Standard while GGG continues to make bland and boring leagues (2 in a row people: Rampage, Torment). Maybe its just me, but legacy items is a part of Legacy/Standard League, and removing that would take a huge chunk of that fun away for good.

Wow, where to even begin here? First of all, using boolean logic for such a complicated problem isn't going to work, which I'll get to shortly. Second, your tone comes off as incredibly arrogant in addition to being poorly thought out.

Let's start with your premise:

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1) Why is an item made into legacy? What is the reason for this?

=> Because the item is deemed unbalanced or overpowered. The original version is an unwanted mistake.

Design changes as a project moves along. It's quite possible that my legacy Broadstroke was perfectly designed when it originally came out. Assuming that it is a mistake is, in itself, a mistake. If the game content, such as passives and other items made available had remained static since the item's introduction, then perhaps you would have a leg to stand on for saying the item itself was a mistake. This is, however, not the case, as the effects of passive changes as well as new items introduced affect the effective power level of every other item in the game. However, you are correct in that developers have deemed this item to be imbalanced in the game's current state.

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2) Why does an item that is unbalanced or overpowered need to be changed?

=> Because having unbalanced or overpowered items in the game is bad for the game, otherwise they wouldn't be changed.

Let's assume this is true. For this to be true, since GGG has both buffed and nerfed many items, we must assume that items remaining unused, or, too used, whether due to the item itself being imbalanced or becoming imbalanced when combined with other (possibly newly released) items, passives, or skills are bad for the game.



Which brings us to 3:

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3) What is the effect of changing unbalanced or overpowered items?

=> They add to a more balanced and better game.

This is an assumption that assumes that every change made is for the better. What if, for example, an item were nerfed to the point that nobody uses it anymore? This would go against axiom two, in that the nerfed item would not only be imbalanced but become unused because of this nerf. This disagrees with axiom 2.

Which brings us to 4:

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4) If legacies still stay in the game, if they are not removed, what are those items then essentially?

=> Legacies are unbalanced or overpowered items, that are bad for the game.

I have a pair of Legacy Darkray Vectors. These were buffed from a 75% frenzy charge duration reduction to a 50% reduction. I also have a legacy The Anvil that was buffed in several stats in newer versions. By keeping these items, am I harming the game? Essentially, by making these items legacy they lost their value, so I suppose there is a little harm to me if I intended to trade them, but other than that no. They are exactly the same as when I found them.

You completely ignored a possible outcome in that they might have no positive or negative impact on the game, as in the case of my uniques mentioned above. That's the problem with boolean logic and why it rarely applies in the real world.



Furthermore, GGG makes significant changes to the skill tree, many of which can break builds. When they do this, however, they often give a free passive reset. If I design a character around a given item, and that item is changed retroactively to the point that it is no longer usable for my character and my character is no longer viable in its current form, am I now entitled to a free respec? The premise is the same.



Legacies are also kind of a self-solving problem to begin with. As time goes on, accounts holding legacies will stop playing, taking many with them. In addition, Vaal Orbs always offer the possibility of an even better legacy item, which I imagine removes a good chunk as well.

Tl;dr: OP has a flawed premise, flawed arguments, flawed conclusion, and is using boolean logic for non boolean problems.