The most logical argument against legacies

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Soepkieken wrote:

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Unfortunately your logic is flawed, as in Standard, there is no competition, it's more like a single player game. Therefore, as long as legacy items do not break the single player game (which they don't, or at least not more so than their non-legacy versions), their existance doesn't change your single player experience.

Basically: your logic is flawed because you're assuming a false prerequisite (competitiveness, as playing against people instead of playing against the game). If you want your logic to hold true, you have to play temp leagues. Unfortunately, in temp leagues legacy items do not exist, which brings your logic ad absurdum.

I just used some statements that are true in itself and deducted a conclusion. I didn't say legacies are bad for every aspect for the game, but where they come into play, they are bad.

It's not up to you to decide what Standard League is anyway. You assume things that cannot be proven true. In Standard, we can PvP e.g., which is competetive and legacies are an issue here. And why would Standard necessarily be Single Player anyway.

In contrary to you, I don't asume things, I just start from statements that are true in themselves, regardless of people's opinions about Standard. And the conclusion is that the existence of legacies in itself is wrong, even if that doesn't affect many players (like temp leagues or single players who never PvP in Standard).

http://youtu.be/mYFnBBAm6eU?t=52s

Legacies make the game more interesting (in most cases). I love the idea that there are legacy uniques floating around that are better than the ones I find. You, and I, and even other people can trade for them, they're fair game. Let's be honest, it's fun to feel overpowered.

My only "legacy issue" if I have one at all, is the legacy mods such as the old crit multiplier on amulets. What this creates is a monopoly of mirror services, where none of us can ever craft an amulet that is as good as the old ones, which makes new ones "not worth crafting". Crafting is, and should be part of the game, so that sucks.

Legacy items are only in permanent leagues anyways, so why care x)?

The most logical argument for legacies is that people grinded their asses off at past time X and deserve to keep their OP(ed) loot.

IMO, legacies (except temp. league ones) should keep dropping in Standard (+HC). Eg. when you loot a BoR, it could be one of three (or how many are there, lol) legacy versions..

not only is it a lot of work for GGG to do that but I think they are also just trying to give us a bit of incentive to join fresh leagues where there are no legacy items and a fresh economy so that we can experience the game how it is meant to be played. The more people that join the leagues the better it is for everyone.

The problem I find is that certain things are just a little too tedious to obtain and you end up with people like you who just don't want to exert that kind of effort in a new league all over again. GGG need to focus a bit more on making their game more pleasurable and less grindy and the FM expansion was a step in the right direction for this. If they can do that I think more people would be receptive to joining new leagues.

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Soepkieken wrote:

I just used some statements that are true in itself and deducted a conclusion. I didn't say legacies are bad for every aspect for the game, but where they come into play, they are bad.

It's not up to you to decide what Standard League is anyway. You assume things that cannot be proven true. In Standard, we can PvP e.g., which is competetive and legacies are an issue here. And why would Standard necessarily be Single Player anyway.

In contrary to you, I don't asume things, I just start from statements that are true in themselves, regardless of people's opinions about Standard. And the conclusion is that the existence of legacies in itself is wrong, even if that doesn't affect many players (like temp leagues or single players who never PvP in Standard).

ok...

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I just used some statements that are true in itself and deducted a conclusion. I didn't say legacies are bad for every aspect for the game, but where they come into play, they are bad.

in a loot based game, what kind of aspect where you thinking about when you wrote this?
because your basicly saying "x isnt always bad but x is in the game, its bad".

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It's not up to you to decide what Standard League is anyway. You assume things that cannot be proven true. In Standard, we can PvP e.g., which is competetive and legacies are an issue here. And why would Standard necessarily be Single Player anyway.

it holds true that legacys are bad for pvp.
but for the rest of the game, it literally doesnt matter.
why whould you care so much if the guy next to you has 300 more es because of a legacy shavronnes?

and yes. besides the quantity gems that arent worth anything anyway i have pretty much nothing that is legacy. so im not bias'd

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IMO, legacies (except temp. league ones) should keep dropping in Standard (+HC). Eg. when you loot a BoR, it could be one of three (or how many are there, lol) legacy versions..

this is actually a good solution.
or make it that if you sell your new shavs in std at the vendor with a divine and other x items, you get a random legacy version of it. but i guess that whouldnt work anyway so fk it.

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Soepkieken wrote:

1) Why is an item made into legacy? What is the reason for this?

=> Because the item is deemed unbalanced or overpowered. The original version is an unwanted mistake.

False. In most cases it is because other parts of the game (such as passive tree) have been rebalanced, which in turn makes these items more powerful. The initial version of the items were often quite balanced at the time of their release.
By your "logic" horse drawn carts are a "mistake" because we now have cars.

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Soepkieken wrote:

2) Why does an item that is unbalanced or overpowered need to be changed?

=> Because having unbalanced or overpowered items in the game is bad for the game, otherwise they wouldn't be changed.

As has been mentioned, their is no competitive ladder in the permanent leagues, and no legacy items in the temp leagues, so how is the existence of legacy items unhealthy for a PvE environment? Someone I don't know having a legacy Shav's (or whatever) does not effect my (or your) gameplay at all.

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Soepkieken wrote:

3) What is the effect of changing unbalanced or overpowered items?

=> They add to a more balanced and better game.

No. That would simply stop players such as yourself peering over the neighbours fence and being envious of huw lush and green their lawn is. It would have zero effect on someone who doesn't have legacy items (excluding PvP, which if you want to participate in and avoid facing legacy equipped characters, you should just play in a temp league).

I can't be bothered disecting the rest of your post but suffice to say, as much as you try to present it as irrefutable logic...

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Another quality legacy items thread.

Maybe we could have a conversation about the presidential legacies and say we misunderstood...


I am really against presidential legacies. They are really bad.

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gilrad wrote:

IIRC, two or three major content patches ago the estimate would be the game being down for weeks to un-legacy items. Imagine how long it would take now.

I have a feeling some time after 1.4, when they have the resources to dedicate to something like this, they'll quietly announce that they've developed a method of modifying items while the game is running but while you're not logged in. Then people's legacies will slowly, one-by-one, get re-rolled.

LOL who came up with this retardedness

To make a legacy none legacy they just need to change whatever mods are higher then max
Since there are not that many uniques that are legacy this pushes the *down time* down alot
Since most people don't have them this pushes it down more

Most of the time needed to run this would be from whatever amount of players this game has (im sure there are alot of accounts) but other games with more accounts do something like this so it can't be that bad

Im not 100% pro or sure how it would work but something like this could work

Do each unique that has a legacy version one by one

take a sql statement and compare if the one in the sql is higher then the max of said unique if so run a new sql and replace that value with either a random one form min to max of the item or jsut max it

This alone wouldn't be hard but again i don't know what type of database this game uses so it could be a bit different

You just run this sql for every account in the game (would take some time but shouldn't be more then 1 day and i don't think it would be even close to 1 day lol)


GGG could do while the game is online i think there wouldn't even need to be down time if the game allows you to edit things in action (some do some don't from what i can tell)


PS i have ran game servers and have done what im saying before so i know it can be done so don't tell me it can't and it isn't that hard if your a programmer you should have no prob doing this at all

Flawless logic and I completly agree.
Unfortunatly most people are not able to think this way and rather yell "dont take mah stuff!"

Personally I have accepted that legacy items stay in the game, though I dont like this at all as they hurt the "integrety of the game"
As a standard player, who tried to like new leagues, this definitly reduces gameplay experience, because I know there are certain good items I will never get. (the point is not about not having them, but NEVER have them)

PoE has several sever and not properly discuissed game design mistakes and legacy items are one of them.


Another topic: The standard <-> temporary leagues relation is weird.

people argument, that standard "does not matter because there are temp leagues" but imo this argument is UTTER BULLSHIT

All temp leagues are DEFINIED by standard, BECAUSE they are temporary.

How can a temporary league matter, if its actually a permanent delayed standard league? I dont get the logic of those people...
my logic conlcusion: "The standard leagues meaningfulness IMPLIES the meaningfulness of the temp leagues" (and an implication is a one way ticket, so basically this means for me that temp leagues dont matter)

In the beginning I liked the idea of "new leagues" because this was familiar from Diablo 2, but I am sure if you think more about it, temporary leagues are just a bandaid fix for some deeply rooted design problems.


Just be honest to yourself for one time without being derp-minded because you might have played Diablo 2 with its resets:

The absolute best case szenario is to have ONE SINGLE league which is constantly updated and rebalanced, while treating people in the fairest way possible regarding their wealth. (for instance legacy items could expire after 1 year but sell for big amounts of chance orbs) And also implement the new stuff immidiatly to this league ofc so nobody is EXCLUDED from certain gameplay. For me the league system is bad because it FRAGMENTS the playerbase.


The way PoE is designed from a progress perspective, it does not make sense at all to make people start over all the time (because it takes endless amounts of time to max out everything). The game should be more focused on starting over NEW CHARACTERS (which is actually extremly punishing in the games current state) rather than "new temporary accounts"(=new league character)

I dont get it why people are so excited about this...

Unfortunatly PoE is still the best ARPG out there, but cant you see options which would fit this game better?

PS.:

What bothers me most on all those game forums is that people are thinking EXTREMLY LINEAR.

Whenever there is a balance change people fear about losing stuff and instantly are against a change, short sighted as every balance change actually improves the game.
So if discussing legacy items being taken out of the game why can people not think about COMPENSATION like I mentioned as example? (legacy item expires but sell for increased amout of currency)
This would definitly work and depending on the numbers be more or less fair.
But legacy items are ONLY UNFAIR! Not because some people can sell their legacies for hundrets of exalts, but because they lower the "integrety" of the game.

PS.:

Must be quoted because brilliant:

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They would sure show they have balls if they put the game down to fix this issue. It would be the most noble act ever done in game history, because they know they will be hated for this by a good amount of people, but they shouldn't care about those. They should only care about the quality of their game, and the amount of legacies and double legacies is becoming rampant.

GGG makes items into legacies, with which they admit a certain mistake. Keeping that mistake in the game doesn't sound like what they stand for: an independent, creative and idealistic company, only concerned with the quality of their game.