Ranged Vs. Melee Disparity.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

The first uber kill was done by the same guy using 10k ES and spectral throw. Also some of the mechanics used in that video have been nerfed (block).

Are you talking about in HC again the first build being 10k es spectral throw? Because the first uber kill regardless of league was done by an RF character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_2R2NGeMdY

Regardless of build type ST was the skill used for uber.

I would like to remind everyone saying that melee can do uuber without trouble...

the ONLY person who has killed Uber atziri with a 2 handed weapon did so on standard with not just best in slot, but also legacy gear, cost either 300 or 3000 exalts (i forgot which, it was a nauseating number) and then went on to profess that with the current state of the game, it is his opinion that it is functionally impossible for 2 handers to beat uuber atziri.

Yes, I know that 2 handers is a whole another kettle of fish, but it does stand to reason that when an entire weapon system in the game will never be able to complete X content - there is an issue somewhere along the line.

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LostKavi wrote:

I would like to remind everyone saying that melee can do uuber without trouble...

the ONLY person who has killed Uber atziri with a 2 handed weapon did so on standard with not just best in slot, but also legacy gear, cost either 300 or 3000 exalts (i forgot which, it was a nauseating number) and then went on to profess that with the current state of the game, it is his opinion that it is functionally impossible for 2 handers to beat uuber atziri.

Yes, I know that 2 handers is a whole another kettle of fish, but it does stand to reason that when an entire weapon system in the game will never be able to complete X content - there is an issue somewhere along the line.

IIRC he only had 1 portal left when he did it too. Can forget about doing this on bloodlines regardless of how rich you are.

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goetzjam wrote:

But you were specifically talking about atziri\uber atziri, I understand there is more to the endgame then that, but alot of players like to point fingers at builds that trivalize the challenge of uber atziri or atziri and act like some of those don't struggle with the rest of the endgame.

Right. Actually the Abyss is easier in some ways since you can protect yourself with IC.

On the other hand, what is considered "Endgame"?

76-78 maps?

This is another personal experience, but I am rolling maps 76+ still with 4 chisel + magic and alt for packsize. Then add and Aug and if its not too bad, Regal it.

Those maps are not hard to run for any build IMHO. ofc they do not give AS much quantity as a 6 affix map.BUt they dont need to.

Every now and then I get a packsize /beyond roll in an affordable amount of time and amount of ALTs used. Last 77 shrine I had with this rolls regaled a + magic monsters% as 3rd roll. The chaos I safe rolling maps go into beyond/domination zana mods for those mods, which not only keep me up with my mappool but also stock them up.

On the other hand I had 2 Haast and 1 Abaxoth on this map as Melee. But the mapmods werent bad at all, so it was doable (enfeeble FTW).
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Long story short, we can not have ONE INDICATOR of what is easy or what is hard.

My tries to get a 79 vaal temple all resulted in suicidal mods (-max with extra cold dmg and boss turbo, vuln with half regen and extra fire dam so far).

That shit is hard for any build despite mirror instaleech builds, and even them might not be able to do those 79 without dying once or twice.

The Endgame in POE is as hard as you roll your maps, if you are bored, Vaal some 78 and yolo them.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

The first uber kill was done by the same guy using 10k ES and spectral throw. Also some of the mechanics used in that video have been nerfed (block).

Are you talking about in HC again the first build being 10k es spectral throw? Because the first uber kill regardless of league was done by an RF character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_2R2NGeMdY

Regardless of build type ST was the skill used for uber.

Rofl ok so he used spectral throw for 1/3 parts of the fight, but apparently people don't realize is that it wasn't HC viable at the time to use that SAME spectral throw character to do the whole map....Which is kind of funny considering the vast amount of cost a build like that cost.

Back to other points:

@lostkavi

Contrary to belief, there are other melee builds aside from 2 handers. 2 handers naturally have a defensive loss by not having a shield, people claimed shields were OP, so they got nerfed, so did block in 1.3 So rather then buffing 2 handers in one aspect or another they naturally made 2 handers more desirable in 1.3 by nerfing block.

Second point is only person blah blah did on standard, well lets see why. Atziri provides a UNIQUE challenge one that most players want to do (at least regular atziri) and we know tons of builds can do her, but uber provides a specific set of requirements that get exponentially increased by being a level 80 map in a game where having max res goes a large way to helping survive. So if you were planning on doing uber atziri would you A) make a build that exploits some mechanics like surgeons flask, max res by running purity auras and ranged to avoid some damage or B) make a build struggle to do the content and die? In hardcore you'd wanna do A. Simply because people don't do it with melee doesn't mean it cant be or shouldn't be done with melee, IIRC GGG "supposivly" tested atziri\uber with non mirrored non legacy gear and did it with a 2 hander, we have no VOD of such action, but they said its been done.

To extend off the second point a little bit more and pull in the first point, HvC did the FIRST TWO AREAS AND THE TRASH with a melee 1hander+shield character, using a skill that requires good positioning (cyclone) and this was before the changes to arguably make the skill better overall.

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Yes, I know that 2 handers is a whole another kettle of fish, but it does stand to reason that when an entire weapon system in the game will never be able to complete X content - there is an issue somewhere along the line.

Except it has apparently done it, however as far as most players are concerned it isn't optimal to do so, so you have to ask yourself why would you even bother trying when you can just do one of the proven methods instead of theory crafting yourself something and do it?

Atziri\uber atziri is a specific set of challenges that causes some builds to obviously be better then others in terms of clearspeed\risk\ect. Saying that because one build can't or will struggle for whatever reason on such a small part of the content in the game and needs to be balanced to make up for it is asinine.

I really wish GGG would release that video of the melee character (2 handed ideally) that they killed uber atziri with.


Back to @leg

So he only had 1 portal left makes it much less viable? As for bloodlines I agree it would be extremely difficult to do, but what mobs are going to provide the most challenge (legit question)?

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goetzjam wrote:

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So he only had 1 portal left makes it much less viable? As for bloodlines I agree it would be extremely difficult to do, but what mobs are going to provide the most challenge (legit question)?

I think nearly every Bloodline mod will be lethal in the Abyss on Bloodlines.

PLink would be the most annoying for sure and might even completly ruin the map if you can not lure them to previous rooms etc.

On the other hand, Tornadoshot offscreening things wont care too much I guess.

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goetzjam wrote:

Back to @leg

So he only had 1 portal left makes it much less viable? As for bloodlines I agree it would be extremely difficult to do, but what mobs are going to provide the most challenge (legit question)?

You don't seem to understand what was said there. He spent literally all the exalt in POE on legacy uniques to make that build, you can't even find those items anymore today.

After which point, he did uber atziri with all that stuff and still died 5 times.

TLDR it is widely known/accepted to be a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY at this point in the lifetime of POE to do atziri melee with a 2 hander in bloodlines. First because the items SIMPLY DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE, and second because he DIED FIVE TIMES WITH THOSE ITEMS.

I'm not going to go as far as to agree with that assessment, there may be a person somewhere who will find a way with some stupid exploit, but when the game is that out of touch in terms of balance there is a fucking problem. And if you think it's just 2hander, lol, it's not.

Again this is not a question of difficulty it is currently a question of CAN IT BE DONE? So far the answer is NO, it CANNOT be done. Why that is accepted I really wouldn't be able to tell you but that's how it is. Feel free to do it and prove everyone wrong, but you aren't HVC so good luck with that.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Back to @leg

So he only had 1 portal left makes it much less viable? As for bloodlines I agree it would be extremely difficult to do, but what mobs are going to provide the most challenge (legit question)?

You don't seem to understand what was said there. He spent literally all the exalt in POE on legacy uniques to make that build, you can't even find those items anymore today.

After which point, he did uber atziri with all that stuff and still died 5 times.

TLDR it is widely known/accepted to be a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY at this point in the lifetime of POE to do atziri melee with a 2 hander in bloodlines. First because the items SIMPLY DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE, and second because he DIED FIVE TIMES WITH THOSE ITEMS.

I'm not going to go as far as to agree with that assessment, there may be a person somewhere who will find a way with some stupid exploit, but when the game is that out of touch in terms of balance there is a fucking problem. And if you think it's just 2hander, lol, it's not.

Again this is not a question of difficulty it is currently a question of CAN IT BE DONE? So far the answer is NO, it CANNOT be done. Why that is accepted I really wouldn't be able to tell you but that's how it is. Feel free to do it and prove everyone wrong, but you aren't HVC so good luck with that.

People said no one would be able to do uber atziri in any HC league and they were wrong. Not saying its possible in bloodlines cause I wouldn't try that stuff personally, but just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it wont or can't ever be.

Secondly 2 hander doesn't = all melee builds. Yes 2 handers suck and really niche for melee, we all really do get that point by now, we know atziri provides different challanges then those of maps, we get that, but saying melee isn't viable because 2 handers can't do uber atziri in hc is asinine.

This isn't path of atziri like I said before its path of exile, melee builds can do well in MOST of the content this game has to offer, is it as good or better then spells\ranged probably not in almost all cases, but it certainly is viable to play melee in PoE.

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goetzjam wrote:

People said no one would be able to do uber atziri in any HC league and they were wrong. Not saying its possible in bloodlines cause I wouldn't try that stuff personally, but just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it wont or can't ever be.

Secondly 2 hander doesn't = all melee builds. Yes 2 handers suck and really niche for melee, we all really do get that point by now, we know atziri provides different challanges then those of maps, we get that, but saying melee isn't viable because 2 handers can't do uber atziri in hc is asinine.

This isn't path of atziri like I said before its path of exile, melee builds can do well in MOST of the content this game has to offer, is it as good or better then spells\ranged probably not in almost all cases, but it certainly is viable to play melee in PoE.

Again using the word "viable"

If "viable" means you can play the game at a pace magnitudes slower than that of a caster or ranged attacker and be forced to skip many times as much content, then sure it's "viable".

For 99% of the users however, "viable" means capable of performing similarly or at the very least a small percentage worse than the best build(s) of similar level (IE, 5ex melee vs 5ex bow vs 5ex caster, and so on up the brackets for at least endgame mapping).

In POE's case a caster or bow is just many magnitudes better than melee in most of the games content.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

People said no one would be able to do uber atziri in any HC league and they were wrong. Not saying its possible in bloodlines cause I wouldn't try that stuff personally, but just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it wont or can't ever be.

Secondly 2 hander doesn't = all melee builds. Yes 2 handers suck and really niche for melee, we all really do get that point by now, we know atziri provides different challanges then those of maps, we get that, but saying melee isn't viable because 2 handers can't do uber atziri in hc is asinine.

This isn't path of atziri like I said before its path of exile, melee builds can do well in MOST of the content this game has to offer, is it as good or better then spells\ranged probably not in almost all cases, but it certainly is viable to play melee in PoE.

Again using the word "viable"

If "viable" means you can play the game at a pace magnitudes slower than that of a caster or ranged attacker and be forced to skip many times as much content, then sure it's "viable".

For 99% of the users however, "viable" means capable of performing similarly or at the very least a small percentage worse than the best build(s) of similar level (IE, 5ex melee vs 5ex bow vs 5ex caster, and so on up the brackets for at least endgame mapping).

In POE's case a caster or bow is just many magnitudes better than melee in most of the games content.

I really hate when people use made up %, you don't have the information needed to use % data so don't use it. It literally means nothing to me or dare I say 99% of the people (lol I used a percentage too) if you add some random percent with no facts to back it up.

You can't compare apples to oranges in this game and expect both to provide a good pie. Ever had an orange pie? Don't think so, I know I haven't. Comparing raw cost or raw gem levels against each other is like comparing a skill tree for melee and giving it to a ranged character, it makes no since because the interactions don't work together the same or even anywhere close to the same in most cases. Different builds require a different level in investment of gear go do the same content, why is that you may ask, well its simple they all behave differently with passives/gear/support gems/playstyle/ect.

You like to mention melee, but whenever we discuss it your like well certain things technically aren't melee, honestly idk what is or isn't melee in this game anymore because it appears that skills that require you to be in melee range isn't melee.

So melee is not:

reave, because you get so much aoe
I guess cleave can get some too, requires specific uniques to get very high AoE.
Lightning strike I guess isn't melee cause it shoots off part lightning damage at range.
cast on melee kill cyclone because...
any build where most of the damage comes from using another source, but still using melee skill (so in melee range with melee skill, but damage comes elsewhere auras, heralds, spells, ect)

So is ground slam not melee with enough AoE?

What about spells with rather small aoe like freeze pulse? I don't consider it melee, but it requires melee range for most times. (quality does help a bunch though)

Thats just for skills, we still don't really know what melee is by the definition, is it:

2 handers
1 handers and shield
dual wielding

Its it weapons specific, like axe, mace, staff?