Ranged Vs. Melee Disparity.

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toyotatundra wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

I for one will go melee in act 4, Chris says its fixed then and melee is more enjoyable.

All you people get cutup on clearspeed and crap for no reason. Melee can clear fast as well.

It can clear fast, not as fast as ranged. Bows have very high damage, plus quivers for more deeps. Leech nerf and incoming EC nerf, these are indirect nerfs to melee since melee need it more, they're the ones that stand next to monster and get hit by every monster in the game.

Last time GGG said melee is being fixed, we got the counterattack gems.

Would love it if you can source the fact that melee was suppose to be fixed with counter attack gems.

I don't recall ever reading CA as the "fix" for melee but rather a solution added to try and help the situation.

I think we would see a lot more melee builds if things like BoR were brought up to the same power (aka ver 2) that it once had. Without something unique (no counter attack gems aren't) that melee can really use they will suffer this curse that everyone sees playing melee as subpar.

GGG says they have a solution I have no reason to not believe that.

People get caught up in the whole why play this when this is better, you shouldn't be thinking that you should be trying to create the strongest character for whatever playstyle you are looking for, thats an ARPG, not this burn prolif or GTFO mentality.

Certain games have ways to deal with this difference. D3 has less damage taken for melee. D2 has party buffs that melee can provide (somewhat transferred to d3) GGG has some options, but because it lacks the lockdown of class=playstyle they have less options, I am looking forward to seeing what is added.

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goetzjam wrote:

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toyotatundra wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

I for one will go melee in act 4, Chris says its fixed then and melee is more enjoyable.

All you people get cutup on clearspeed and crap for no reason. Melee can clear fast as well.

It can clear fast, not as fast as ranged. Bows have very high damage, plus quivers for more deeps. Leech nerf and incoming EC nerf, these are indirect nerfs to melee since melee need it more, they're the ones that stand next to monster and get hit by every monster in the game.

Last time GGG said melee is being fixed, we got the counterattack gems.

Would love it if you can source the fact that melee was suppose to be fixed with counter attack gems.

I don't recall ever reading CA as the "fix" for melee but rather a solution added to try and help the situation.

I think we would see a lot more melee builds if things like BoR were brought up to the same power (aka ver 2) that it once had. Without something unique (no counter attack gems aren't) that melee can really use they will suffer this curse that everyone sees playing melee as subpar.

GGG says they have a solution I have no reason to not believe that.

People get caught up in the whole why play this when this is better, you shouldn't be thinking that you should be trying to create the strongest character for whatever playstyle you are looking for, thats an ARPG, not this burn prolif or GTFO mentality.

Certain games have ways to deal with this difference. D3 has less damage taken for melee. D2 has party buffs that melee can provide (somewhat transferred to d3) GGG has some options, but because it lacks the lockdown of class=playstyle they have less options, I am looking forward to seeing what is added.

Do you remember when Chris said that blood magic builds were stronger than ever before?

el oh el at what GGG says, until we see it I will always doubt it.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

The first, and only true disparity I see in this game is that the average damage for bows is much to high for being a ranged weapon.

Doesn't matter.

100 million Dual Strike still clears slower than 10k Tornado Shot.

Moved this massive post to a new thread.

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Isn't the issue much more about survivability than about dps/area of effect? I mean, unless you go to extremes (like making insane melee aoe or making anything ranged unfun and unplayable), the gap between the two distances will always be very big.
If you give melee more survivability without affecting range, then you've suddenly closed the gap a whole lot more in better ways.

For example, a keystone that gives +20% "more" life, but reduces all non-melee skill damage to 0 (I am of course exaggerating, the goal is that you get the idea).

A keystone like such really wouldn't go with GGG's design of any class can do anything, because no matter where you put the keystone forcing melee builds to get it is just poor design.

PoE is a complicated game that doesn't limit what you can do (except certain attacks are limited to certain weapons :/)


As such every defensive option GGG has added for melee has also been available for ranged, which is why the disparity exists in the first place. Chris said they have a solution for this and no I don't think its another bloodmagic buff.

GGG tried the "surviability" buff by giving the marauder + 3 max all res (basically) and saw how abused that was by builds that weren't melee, so I feel like any change to "fix" melee has to be from somewhere other then the tree.

Yes technically a non-melee skill damage could work, but there are TONS of builds that don't care if they do damage or not (at least directly) Summoners, totems, RF, pure support builds, ect. Just that along is a reason NOT to implement such a keystone, not to mention how lazy of a solution that really is.

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Chundadragon wrote:

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Jackel6672 wrote:

The first, and only true disparity I see in this game is that the average damage for bows is much to high for being a ranged weapon.

Doesn't matter.

100 million Dual Strike still clears slower than 10k Tornado Shot.

That has nothing to do with what you quoted. If the damage was reeled in on bows, that tornado shot might take 3 shots instead of 1. Which would allow monsters to not be so spiky and allow them to actually have a chance at getting to the ranged character. Of course Tornado shot is a bad example, due to it shotgunning. If it couldn't shotgun it would not see near the usage as it does now.



Its also not just damage, if they wanted to they could balance it with attack speed as well. I wen't into that with my other post.

As far as been presented, this is the only real solution I have seen that is not a band-aid. This wouldn't require anything extra.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

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Chundadragon wrote:

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Jackel6672 wrote:

The first, and only true disparity I see in this game is that the average damage for bows is much to high for being a ranged weapon.

Doesn't matter.

100 million Dual Strike still clears slower than 10k Tornado Shot.

That has nothing to do with what you quoted. If the damage was reeled in on bows, that tornado shot might take 3 shots instead of 1. Which would allow monsters to not be so spiky and allow them to actually have a chance at getting to the ranged character.

How?

Let's say you tuned monster HP in 78 maps such that, with every gear slot dedicated to bow damage and crit multiplier, and every passive tree choice dedicated to maximizing the same, and essentially perfect gear, an archer would still do at most 49% damage each against 3 monsters (on crits), ensuring at best a 3-shot kill for a small pack.

Now consider what a horrible experience it would be to attempt 78s with an archer without that perfect gear, with a passive tree which actually made sense, and without two lucky Vaal corruptions to get additional arrows.

This is an ARPG. In designing it, a dev has only a soft control over how much damage characters do per hit, how fast they'll attack, and so on. The experience is ruined for all but the top 0.001% if you balance for the maximum possible damage values in the game. The "reeling" you suggest is practically impossible.

The proper balance method is not reining in numbers, but reining in shapes. A dev might not be able to control damage per hit very well, but controlling monsters hit per use of a particular skill, that's far more feasible. It's easier for devs to meet character progression expectations by controlling the availability of increased AoE mods, additional projectile mods, etc, than it is to prevent players from improving their DPS.

Thus, it's really all about skill balance. As the man said, a 100 million DPS Dual Strike is crap compared to a 10k DPS Tornado Shot. And the key to ranged vs melee balance is making sure melee gets some great skills that reward it for spending time getting close - and reward it with nice multiple-hit AoE - while ranged lacks access to the shapes melee can use.

Tornado Shot's OPness is based not on it's damage numbers, but a much more simple thing: how many projectiles it can fire, and the patterns it can fire them in.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This is an ARPG. In designing it, a dev has only a soft control over how much damage characters do per hit, how fast they'll attack, and so on. The experience is ruined for all but the top 0.001% if you balance for the maximum possible damage values in the game. The "reeling" you suggest is practically impossible.

Diminishing returns.