Ranged Vs. Melee Disparity.
" Lol so that's the solution to melee problem? Play solo? The point is 6 map enter the room, with no idea what awaits them. 5 ranged builds exit the room, one melee doesn't. The game is much much much more forgiving to ranged. I've played 2 melee builds in bloodlines (76&77) and one ranged (80 atm), and I didn't get close to dieing once on the range build. While melee with 7,2k life ripped in 0,5seconds. There's so many bullshit mechanics that will outright punish melee but won't be felt my ranged. „I don't give a fuck if it was his tenth anniversary with his goddamn neckbeard...“ „If they think I'm going to let them sweep this pizza guy thing under the rug...“ No mod action. Business as usual. Last edited by Odoakar on Jan 22, 2015, 5:40:36 PM
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" No I was simply asking a question right after another, guess I can't do that. I was asking further why that player might not be aware of that challenge. " Cool, thats a fantastic point, i rather see 3 ranged and 3 melee enter, maybe builds that don't just spam shit on the screen without communication within the party. Don't blame melee for the ignorance of not knowing a challenge, that challenge would be present regardless. Whether it affects other builds as much, that can be argued, but ignorance of a challenge isn't an argument to make in the melee vs ranged disparity. " And, I really don't see your point your trying to make, just like legasus you try 2 or3 things (melee) and 1 ranged thing and then compare WHOLE CLASSIFICATIONS as facts, they aren't facts they are experiences, whether or not that information paired with a lot of other information can present a theory thats another story. But simply because you've now struggled with a near instant rip because of a mechanic you weren't aware of that does punish poor positioning, now your are entitled to complain about the state of melee vs ranged? " That is a problem in every ARPG ever made saying its limited to PoE is asinine. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. | |
" I am not saying GGG is doing everything right. But I am positive 2H melee can do Uber Atziri. If you can play well enough to avoid the spells manually - the only danger for Uber Atziri is her spear. If you made a 2H character with Grace and Ondar's Guile you have solved the problem right there. On top of that 2H can use TWO 6Ls - one for single target and one for AOE to clear adds. So they could use 6L Spectral Throw for clearing the adds and then a melee single target skill for Atziri. You people really need to get out of this mindset of melee purposely trying to TANK damage that can easily be avoided. That is why he died so many times. GGG did NOT design this Atziri boss so you can just mindlessly AFK and tank. They designed them to make you THINK and play with some level of skill. This exact same thing happened when Torture Chamber boss got revamped. This exact same thing happened when 78 Dominus was released. Purposely trying to tank high burst damage that is easy to avoid is the wrong way to approach these end-game bosses. I keep seeing this but people are not realizing that maybe GGG wants you to change the WAY you play. Sadly most people just want to sit and tank damage, instead of manually moving out of the way, and this approach usually ends in tears. Last edited by Ceryneian on Jan 22, 2015, 7:29:52 PM
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Ranged is unbalanced vs. Melee is because this recent patch 1.3 broke the camel's back with 2 changes to the game:
1. Massive nerf to block which many melee builds used to survive 2. Introduction of bow movement skills These 2 factors almost negate the viability of playing melee. A bow user gets an easy 40% dodge and up to 46% spell dodge - with 100% uptime - by investing 5 POINTS. A melee build to get comparable damage avoidance through block needs much higher point investment / much more restrictive gear. Additionally a bow user now has a movement skill almost similar to Whirling Blades / Leap Slam. Having this much damage avoidance & mobility on a ranged build that already plays at a safe distance, RELATIVE to a melee build, is absurd. Last edited by Ceryneian on Jan 22, 2015, 7:28:32 PM
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" While you aren't necessarily wrong in saying that "You can't tank this shit, don't try..." An inherent problem with melee users is that they *have* to tank this stuff, ESPECIALLY 2 handers. It's extremely difficult to avoid. Furthermore, the very nature of melee relies on you getting into extremely close proximity and locking yourself in place for a comparatively significant amount of time, making the distance you have to travel to avoid X damage on average slightly higher, and the ability to stutterstep properly to keep your chance of avoiding skills SIGNIFICANTLY lower. Take Dominus's ground pound for example. Ranged people never worry about this, but let's say that someone fell asleep and let dominus wind up right next to them. They can just stop rightclicking and walk away. (Now, they can even hit q and blink arrow away which frankly I think is a skill that should never have been added. Mirror arrow is okay and hooky and fun, but blink is WAY out.) Melee on the other hand, depending on the skill, have a number of problems. A) most (specifically 2 handed) melee builds will invest in armor as a defense mechanism, which means unless you started as a duelist, you are probably incurring a pretty significant movement penalty, which can go up to -15% iirc. While you usually want movespeed on your boots, it's still less effective. (Up to 15% less effective, who knew?) B) because of dominus's attack patterns, he will usually have a grid of chilling bonds up before he starts his ground pound, so your already slow movement is slowed further in escaping, whereas he has to move towards someone who is out of range giving you time to disengage the chillbeams- otherwise he will immediately cycle to the fist of god after deploying totem grid. Bii) You have less warning when you are in melee range as to whether he's going to lightning lash you or ground pound because he doesn't move towards you prior to it. C) If you are using multistrike, you can be rooted in place, unavoidably, for, if your attack speed isn't very good, up to 1.5 seconds. He can almost channel a full ground pound in that time. Cii) If you're using cyclone, similar issue. Limited movespeed to a set destination that can't be interrupted until completion. D) Whirling blades is sufficently fast, but not long enough range to get out of the area of domins's ground pound, so you need 2 casts to get clear, unless you are already slightly off center of him. Leap slam, unless you have a LOT of attack speed, is too slow travelling to evade it completely. Heavens forbid the poor fool who doesn't have either, cause you ain't walking out of it without a quicksliver in full plate armor. Neither blink arrow nor lightning warp have these issues (though lightning warp does work counteractively with inc duration, so that's a problem) Now, all of these never go wrong all at once. But you can't avoid all of them indefinitely, which means you HAVE to tank it eventually. And it has been repeately shown that you just can't. Ranged on the other hand...just have to not fall asleep. And if they do, have enough mana to q. Spellcasters have to not fall asleep, no caveot. Do you see the difference now? "But we still had a lot of fun, please don't think this comes from hate. We bitch because we like you and we want you to be great!" ~Miracle of Sound Last edited by LostKavi on Jan 22, 2015, 8:26:27 PM
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" I just wanted to reword this.. we mean the same thing (I think) but when I read this, I think it's neglecting the major part of the point, which is capacity to kite and attack. All builds have to manually avoid damage at times (i.e., not be hit, by being somewhere else). Problems arise, however, when comparing the necessity of this, to the inherent capacity of certain builds to achieve this while still fitting in damage here and there. Range builds are vastly more capable of "not being there," because they can re-position themselves basically anywhere and still fit in an attack. Melee builds on the other hand, must re-position themselves dangerously close in order to inflict a hit. The scope of their field of movement is vastly more narrow. This is further exacerbated by slow APS weapons. In order to effectively hit-and-run, I'd say (just a guess, from experience) you need at the very least 1.66 APS (0.6s attack speed). At that speed it's often a gamble whether or not your attack animation will finish in time to move out of the way of the next attack. Ideally, you'll want 2.5 to 3.33 APS (0.4 to 0.3s attack speed, respectively) to reliably manage an attack, sometimes two, while still managing to kite in between. And good fucking luck to you, pulling that off with a <= 1.15 base APS weapon. Devolving Wilds Land “T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.” Last edited by CanHasPants on Jan 22, 2015, 11:19:44 PM
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To piggy-back on a few of the above posts.
Ooh, look! It even has flavour text ;) IGN: Victory_Or_Sovngarde
It's not a 13 week development cycle, it's a 13 week supporter-pack cycle. You can play any build you want, as long as it's the current meta. |
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" Thats why Cyclone is atm nearly the only "Viable" (please take viable in context of "most easy to pull of for the effort put in") option for melee skills. You move and hit the same time, and you do not need any Attackspeed for it, since the first hit of cyclone is instant and recasting it faster (aka. only going the minimal distance then recast) will net you the same dps increase as attackspeed. I think you pointed out the biggest flaw of melee, which is "self lockdown while hitting". Maybe a Keystone in the Mara area with "While performing a Meleeskill, you gain 30% less damage". Means, as long as you are stuck in the windup-animation of any melee skill, you gain 30% less damage. Problem: Cyclone OP with that. http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1158669 Cyclone MARA Beginners and Advanced Guide. Last edited by Vincendra on Jan 23, 2015, 7:04:32 AM
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" We are agreeing on the same thing. GGG is making these bosses so that it is less about the build and more about how you play. If you want to do 78 Dominus you have to accept that there is a risk of dying and be able to play accordingly. Uber Atziri is the extreme of this where if you are sleeping on ANY build and not paying attention - you are dead. The problem is that a lot of melee users have this mindset that they MUST tank EVERYTHING. They are disinclined to even move their character when they see a big blast/smash coming. You cannot play like that any more in PoE. I expect GGG to introduce more res penetration boss mechanics, which would make the above mindset even more obsolete. At least before 1.3 most melee builds were using block to help their survivability. That's why I say the nerf to block was an indirect buff to bow users. It made Dodge and Spell Dodge relatively more powerful and easily obtainable compared to block. Before 1.3 there was very little talk of range vs. melee disparity, but now when you have a bow user running around with 40% dodge, 46% spell dodge, and a movement skill like whirling blades, you look at your own melee character and realize it is a big big investment / gear sacrifice to get those same levels of block. So why would you do it? Simply put if you are running a melee build with LESS than 40% block and 46% spell block, you are wasting your time and would be better off building a ranged build. In fact I would argue that you need at least 60% block and 60% spell block to be on par with a Ranger with 40% dodge and 46% spell dodge simply because you are at the front of danger. Even if you argue that melee users can use Immortal Call - bow users and spell users can do the same since Enduring Cry has a wide AOE. On top of that the melee counterattack gems are useless for defense UNLESS you are running a high crit build (freeze, instant leech with Acuity). So again, the nerf to block and the intro of bow movement skill, IMO, is what makes it really hard to justify playing a melee build over a range build. Last edited by Ceryneian on Jan 23, 2015, 8:33:23 AM
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" This! GGG do it! CROSS-LEAGUE TRADING: pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1418564
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