Ranged Vs. Melee Disparity.

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goetzjam wrote:

Things change all the time in regards to melee\ranged\spells\block\tree\maxres\ect saying nothing will change is quite the opposite of what actually does happen, many things change, if you can't see that then idk if you've been playing the game for that long.

Ok, let's take a closer look at the melee ranged disparity thing. Yes there were lots of changes since closed beta until now. But for melee it only got worse, worse and worse. The gap between melee and ranged was never as big as it is now (compare any melee build you want with rainbownuke e.g.). There is a significant distinction between your "things will never change" and my "things will never be balanced".


German saying: Schönheit und Funktionalität in Sekundenschnelle zu ruinieren, ist dem wahren Dilettanten keine Herausforderung!
torturo: "Though, I'm really concerned, knowing by practice the capabilities of the balance team."
top2000: "let me bend your rear for a moment exile"
"let's take a closer look"

*posts one paragraph generalization*
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the only question you need to ask is...how many ranged builds are uber atzeri capable, and how many melee builds are.

this is the apex of the game's challenges. shouldn't there be close to an even amount of uber atzeri capable builds if the game is even close to balanced. Itn't that the issue. 1 guy with mirror quality and legacy gear did uber with melee, and died multiple times during.

Perfect balance is not possible, but for Christ sakes it's a little bit lopsided folks....don't you think?
"
Xtorma wrote:
the only question you need to ask is...how many ranged builds are uber atzeri capable, and how many melee builds are.

this is the apex of the game's challenges. shouldn't there be close to an even amount of uber atzeri capable builds if the game is even close to balanced. Itn't that the issue. 1 guy with mirror quality and legacy gear did uber with melee, and died multiple times during.

Perfect balance is not possible, but for Christ sakes it's a little bit lopsided folks....don't you think?


Not really, in the current game state the apex is indeed the only "end-game" encounter we have, coupled with maybe 78 and 79 maps.

However, the fight itself is very build disabling, for instance immunity's on atziri already limit a substantial amount of builds to even consider doing her. This apply's to both ranged and melee.

What i am trying to say is, in the current state, yeah you are correct, but let's imagine more encounters like these will be developed and atziri is only "one of many" end-game goals yet to come.

If that's the case, then the lack of balance in this one encounter can actually be counter-balanced by enabling these builds in another "end-game" encounter. Thus creating a sort of "deck" to beat end-game challenges.

Obviously people will seek out builds that can run all of these encounters in due time(if they ever come to be), that's just the nature of the beast. But implementing more "end-game" challenges can be a solution to the issue you bring up.

Peace,

-Boem-

Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
"
Xtorma wrote:
the only question you need to ask is...how many ranged builds are uber atzeri capable, and how many melee builds are.

this is the apex of the game's challenges. shouldn't there be close to an even amount of uber atzeri capable builds if the game is even close to balanced. Itn't that the issue. 1 guy with mirror quality and legacy gear did uber with melee, and died multiple times during.

Perfect balance is not possible, but for Christ sakes it's a little bit lopsided folks....don't you think?


the problem with uber atziri as melee is thrashmobs, not the bosses.

I agree that ranged do haave it easier there, since they dont need to tank thoses hits. Imagine Leapers or Flickers on the Abyss, and no ranged would possibly reach atzir. (although they can offscreen them, kappa).

I am close to beating uber with an RT build, I did 2 tries so far, reached atziri 2 times but only with one portal left. (on both tries, I died to vaals once and to trash 4 timesn with only 1 portal left for atziri).

on the fight itself I just got unlucky with the stormcalls in the splitphase.


For thrash, I only died 4 times each because of impatience. You need to lure them in 3-4 packs max and keep them enfeebled.

Worst trash deaths so far: Powerful crits oneshot of those vaal guys with ele ailments (not enfeebled, was alone, thought i do not need enfeeble, RIP).

Normal crit of a vaal snake with puncture. hit me with 5k unenfeebled while running, ripped b4 I could pot.


____


I know Atziri is not the end off all measurement. As melee, the problem is that you need much more EHP to be able to humanly react to stuff. 99% of trash dies, 1% you need to worrym because 6,5k HP get deleted instantly.

The problem is also, thaat melee, with the exception of cyclone, needs some time to stand still and therefore take inevitable damage.

I do not claim melee is fine as it is, it just needs gameplay many people do not enjoy to be safer(selfcast enfeeble on packs and bosses, use a highlvl CWDT coldsnap prolif setup or even trap coldsnap prolif setup, don't go running into packs but lure them seperatly).
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1158669

Cyclone MARA Beginners and Advanced Guide.
"
Legatus1982 wrote:




The first uber kill was done by the same guy using 10k ES and spectral throw. Also some of the mechanics used in that video have been nerfed (block).


Are you talking about in HC again the first build being 10k es spectral throw? Because the first uber kill regardless of league was done by an RF character.

@666lol666

The gap has increased because of the changes that GGG has made to skill gems, passive tree, ect. Saying one build that does 1 million damage is exponentially better then another build that does 100k damage would be a true statement, but in terms of clearspeed they may actually be around the same, defiantly not 10 times faster clear speed.

Compare any melee build that cost what in terms of investment of gear? 5-10ex tops maybe to something like rainbow nuke that cost 60+ ex. I mean we can race a porsche vs my van any day of course the van is going to lose, it cost a lot less and isn't designed for speed.

Also 1 paragraph general statements aren't really a closer look, but rather 1 paragraph general statements.

@xtorma

This isn't Path of Atziri\Path of Uber Atziri, this is Path of Exile, while atzriri is seen by many as an endgame boss, she actually isn't accessible to a good portion of builds that want to complete her, by design. Unlike regular endgame maps, this fight is relatively the same from each encounter, in order to somewhat balance that GGG made each of the fights provide a unique challenge for builds, this limits the scope to builds that can do all of her with one character, at the same time we saw in the past people using 2 different characters one that is generally more specialized at tanking while the 3rd being one that did atziri and "abused" flasking mechanics to stay alive.

Act 4 should be adding some more "endgame" challenges, hopefully that aren't gated behind RNG as much and "force" players into builds that exploit extreme resistances in order to survive. Grandmasters map should be added REALLY soon (2 weeks or less if I had to guess)
https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285

FeelsBadMan

Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.


"
the problem with uber atziri as melee is thrashmobs, not the bosses.


Manually casting enduring cry (perf with echo) and increased duration immortal call makes those mobs do no physical damage at all. You can case enfeeble if you want, but a lower level enfeeble on CWDT and manually casting immortal call\ec makes that argument mute.
https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285

FeelsBadMan

Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.
"
goetzjam wrote:


"
the problem with uber atziri as melee is thrashmobs, not the bosses.


Manually casting enduring cry (perf with echo) and increased duration immortal call makes those mobs do no physical damage at all. You can case enfeeble if you want, but a lower level enfeeble on CWDT and manually casting immortal call\ec makes that argument mute.


I agree wholeheartly. I requote myself:

"
For thrash, I only died 4 times each because of impatience.


Pretty much thinking "for 3 mobs I don't need IC/enfeeble" when my echo end cry would give me enough charges for this pack anyways. Pretty much trained lazynes from normal atziri.



On another note, IC is protecting you 99% of the time against phys anyways. Ele damage and their multipliers is what gives melee such a hard time. ("Monster deals 80-100% extra damage as ELEMENT", Multiproj with elemental spells, Minara Anemina (exile) Minion instability in high maps,ans many many more)
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1158669

Cyclone MARA Beginners and Advanced Guide.
Some people have said that making armour work better in melee range is a good idea. I feel this is the wrong way to approach this as there are far more builds that play melee than just the armour builds.

The ideas I like the most are the ones where you make the melee nodes significantly better for mitigation and damage but not good enough to justify spending the points there if you'd only be getting one of the benefits. Let us look at the new "Razor's Edge" node.

20% increased physical damage with swords.
20% increased accuracy rating with swords.
Melee Attacks have 5% chance to cause bleeding.

While this is all good and well offensively it doesn't help with the real problem melees have.

If we however took a page from Soul of Steel and made the new and improved look like this.

20% increased physical damage with swords.
20% increased accuracy rating with swords.
Melee Attacks have 5% chance to cause bleeding.
3% additional physical damage reduction while wielding a Sword.
3% to all elemental resistances while wielding a Sword.

While the node has now become somewhat cluttered it gives a nice bonus to defense whilst remaining not very good for non-melee specs to go for. Adding similar bonuses to nodes located at the end of "circles" would be really nice way to add some survivability to melee.

I feel like maybe they could instead of giving all Elemental res they could give 0.5% to Max resistances so that if you'd say take the whole circle where Razor's Edge is located you'd get a whole % more. This would probably have to be balanced by some downside though because of how high max res is valued. Let's throw on a less projectile/spell damage modifier to it aswell.

"
Vincendra wrote:



On another note, IC is protecting you 99% of the time against phys anyways. Ele damage and their multipliers is what gives melee such a hard time. ("Monster deals 80-100% extra damage as ELEMENT", Multiproj with elemental spells, Minara Anemina (exile) Minion instability in high maps,ans many many more)


But you were specifically talking about atziri\uber atziri, I understand there is more to the endgame then that, but alot of players like to point fingers at builds that trivalize the challenge of uber atziri or atziri and act like some of those don't struggle with the rest of the endgame.
https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285

FeelsBadMan

Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.

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