Heartbreaker really has no place. It CAN be used but one can craft better spell dagger with alterations and regal and masters. So its potency is not that great
that culling strike is ofc nice to use if one cannot simply do arc + faster + culling + iir. this is 4link. add chain for 5link. what to use in 6link? there is little need for links for culler
culling strike in long distance (statistically) equals to 10% 'more' damage modifier (well, not exactly 10% but close enough). thats it. it is not something to loose another 50% spellpower, cast speed and spell crit/multi rare wand/dagger offers on that level.
i have it since long ago (bought for like a chaos from trade chat) and used it exactly once - and only because i forced myself. it wasnt worth it.. AT ALL
this is one of the 'paper' uniques that sound nice, look nice and are in general tempting. but in practice every rare dwarfs them and the 'unique bonuses' are gimmicks not worth talking about
like Darkscorn.
Heartbreaker is absolutely fine. It's not bis but very usable and definitely has its own place. Also, little need for links? What about Spell Echo and Empower? Lightning Penetration? Sometimes even Life Leech? I'm sure there are more gems I'm forgetting.
There are definitely better daggers/wands for culler but Heartbreaker is absolutely fine for its price and level req. You are comparing it to a really, really expensive wand/dagger, why is that? It costs like 2ex on HC ladders, I'm sure even less in Standard.
im comparing it to stuff like this:
vendor-level random low lvl dagger i have in my stash. nothing fancy. mixed melee/spell stats. vendor. it provides better damage than heartbreaker - believe it or not.
links.. well i hope you understand that no serious spellcaster shall use hearbreaker for damage? even Moonsorrow is a better caster weapon. for utility - culler has enough links to support a 5link cull without hearbreaker. what makes it even worse - Heralds are not spells - so cull from heartbreaker does not apply
it isnt a garbage item. but it fails as badly in practice as it 'shines' on paper. ive tested it, tried to make it work. and failed horribly. the gimmicks are not worth it in real life.
Role: A shield for trappers, providing a way to generate Power Charges
This unique is an awesome design, providing some nice regular stats such as Physical and Trap damage and even Life. The "unique" mods being -phys damage taken and 15% chance to gain a Power Charge on Throwing a Trap. Also grants you a level 20 Bear Trap. Awesome! However, when running a crit trapper, almost any ES shield with spell critical strike chance and spell damage (yes, they won't affect Bear Trap but haven't seen a build yet using only bear trap, fire trap and spell + trap are affected by these) is simply better. Also, Jaws of Agony provides next to no ES which is very important on shield since most trappers run EB. To top it off, the 15% chance to generate PC on throwing a trap isn't simply enough to sustain your power charges so the shield falls short. What's the use of a req. level 70, relatively rare shield when a mediocore rare provides better defense and offense?
Significantly boosting the chance to proc Power Charges on throwing a trap would make this shield easily viable, while being unique.
This is a powerful shield that is both underrated and misunderstood. While it can be used effectively by trappers, it's even more useful to melee fighters as a self-contained crowd control solution. Check out the gem combo I use in it: (built-in lvl-20) Bear Trap + Multiple Traps + Added Fire Dmg + Blood Magic. Along with Herald of Ash, but no additional trap nodes, this gives me up to six traps, each with around 4000 damage at zero mana cost. I use this on a melee CoC Discharge build to immobilize the psychos long enough to cremate them. I also have a Saffel's Frame on weapon swap with Ice Spear, but that's just in case I need to tank spell damage.
As a crowd control shield, crit is unnecessary, and the 15% chance to get a Power Charge mod is just a secondary perk. The main value of the shield is getting a buffed 4-link lvl-20 Bear Trap along with a decent amount of HP. The only thing I'd like to see improved is its 26% Chance to Block.
Last edited by RogueMage on Nov 25, 2014, 4:07:48 PM
vendor-level random low lvl dagger i have in my stash. nothing fancy. mixed melee/spell stats. vendor. it provides better damage than heartbreaker - believe it or not.
links.. well i hope you understand that no serious spellcaster shall use hearbreaker for damage? even Moonsorrow is a better caster weapon. for utility - culler has enough links to support a 5link cull without hearbreaker. what makes it even worse - Heralds are not spells - so cull from heartbreaker does not apply
it isnt a garbage item. but it fails as badly in practice as it 'shines' on paper. ive tested it, tried to make it work. and failed horribly. the gimmicks are not worth it in real life.
You just can't imply that the dagger (or similar daggers) you linked unambiguously outperforms Heartbreaker which you kind of are doing right now. For example, a lot of cullers are non-crit (in HC at least, haven't played Standard in almost three years) in which case Heartbreaker is miles ahead of your dagger because of a saved link. Also, I never said spellcasters use Heartbreaker for damage? I just explained there are definitely enough gems for 6L, even for culler. Damage for culler is nice but not needed. Not really sure I follow your logic here, most likely my bad tho.
As said, Heartbreaker is one of those uniques that can be outperformed by a decently rolled rare weapon, which makes it a very viable and okish unique. It certainly is nowhere near as bad as some of the other uniques listed in this thread.
To conclude, I'm not saying Heartbreaker is amazing. But it does have its own place.
Last edited by MIIKKAAA on Nov 25, 2014, 4:02:56 PM
culler 'saved a link'? what for? really.. try it yourself, just try it and compare to any caster vendor-dagger you find on the ground. HC or not - this is like 'free minutes' mobile operator gives you knowing full well youll never use them. 'pretended gain'. people fall for that.
spells (except for incinerate) are scaled with crit. thats the intended and real way. hearbreaker has no crit. this dagger - and it IS NOT DECENTLY ROLLED! - beats it. no problem, absolutely no problem.
has culling - that is a paper bonus because one can have easily absolutely sufficient and perfectly viable 5link for cull.
i see that you want to defend it etc. but this is a paper item - bonuses are illusory and the alternatives are both plentiful and way way better
i would love to see a build that uses this item in a way that enchances the build. makes it work in a way that is not easily improved by simply droping the heartbreak and replacing it with meh rare. or a moonsorrow (that has cast speed..)
also - hearbreaker bonus does not scale when dual wielding. dual wielding Moonsorrows with 'dual wield cast speed' nodes scales in a pretty amazing way. cast speed for culler is pretty important to cull as many targets as possible
Last edited by sidtherat on Nov 25, 2014, 4:10:41 PM
This is a powerful shield that is both underrated and misunderstood. While it can be used effectively by trappers, it's even more useful to melee fighters as a self-contained crowd control solution. Check out the gem combo I use in it: (built-in lvl-20) Bear Trap + Multiple Traps + Added Fire Dmg + Blood Magic. Along with Herald of Ash, but no additional trap nodes, this gives me three traps with around 4000 damage at zero mana cost. I use this on a melee CoC Discharge build to immobilize the psychos long enough to cremate them. I also have a Saffel's Frame on weapon swap with Ice Spear, but that's just in case I need to tank spell damage.
As a crowd control shield, crit is unnecessary, and the 15% chance to get a Power Charge mod is just a secondary perk. The main value of the shield is getting a buffed 4-link lvl-20 Bear Trap along with a decent amount of HP. The only thing I'd like to see improved is its 26% Chance to Block.
In your build, any decently rolled ES shield with spell damage is going to outperform in. In any trapper build it's the same case. And if you find the Bear Trap very useful, you can still use it as a 3L or 4L somewhere elsewhere. For a unique that requires level 71 to even use, that's not just fine.
"The creators intentions behind creating the item were to give trap builds a way to gain Power Charges while also strengthening and encouraging the use of the Bear Trap Skill." - Source
Its purpose was to create a viable way for crit trappers to generate (and maintain?) power charges. It fails in this. No trapper will ever find this useful shield outside some very, very niche situations.
culler 'saved a link'? what for? really.. try it yourself, just try it and compare to any caster vendor-dagger you find on the ground. HC or not - this is like 'free minutes' mobile operator gives you knowing full well youll never use them. 'pretended gain'. people fall for that.
spells (except for incinerate) are scaled with crit. thats the intended and real way. hearbreaker has no crit. this dagger - and it IS NOT DECENTLY ROLLED! - beats it. no problem, absolutely no problem.
has culling - that is a paper bonus because one can have easily absolutely sufficient and perfectly viable 5link for cull.
i see that you want to defend it etc. but this is a paper item - bonuses are illusory and the alternatives are both plentiful and way way better
i would love to see a build that uses this item in a way that enchances the build. makes it work in a way that is not easily improved by simply droping the heartbreak and replacing it with meh rare. or a moonsorrow (that has cast speed..)
also - hearbreaker bonus does not scale when dual wielding. dual wielding Moonsorrows with 'dual wield cast speed' nodes scales in a pretty amazing way. cast speed for culler is pretty important to cull as many targets as possible
clearly you have not played a culling build or indeed ANY build that has gem space issues.
alot of summoning builds and a bunch of other support builds tend to have heavy gem space demands and heart breaker allows you to socket a spell + rarity + quantity if you so desire on a 3l off hand while still being able to use a shield . namely wheel of the storm sail.
a cullers job is to make sure he culls everything , not damage. no iir culler in existence is going to keep up with the 150 - 900k aoe dps builds that tend to map areas worthy of hauling around a culler. it is just not what they are built for.
so yeah if i was a stupidly high dps build that can more than easily carry a whole team of no dps players , I really dont think i will give two tosses if the guy with 500 irr 150 iiq who is making the yellows and gold mobs into veritable loot pinatas does like 10k dps.
a culler playing solo .. doesnt .... need... to .... cull because he is the only person attacking shit.
and even if we do not consider gem space , i know plenty of cullers who will dedicated 2 or 3 support slots to making sure the cull skill is fast and covers a good range. so yeah not needing the pretty crappy culling strike gem in the mix is a boon.
heart breaker is not only viable , it is actively desired , it is bizarre that I would see it mentioned on this thread.
Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Nov 25, 2014, 4:23:11 PM
culler 'saved a link'? what for? really.. try it yourself, just try it and compare to any caster vendor-dagger you find on the ground. HC or not - this is like 'free minutes' mobile operator gives you knowing full well youll never use them. 'pretended gain'. people fall for that.
spells (except for incinerate) are scaled with crit. thats the intended and real way. hearbreaker has no crit. this dagger - and it IS NOT DECENTLY ROLLED! - beats it. no problem, absolutely no problem.
has culling - that is a paper bonus because one can have easily absolutely sufficient and perfectly viable 5link for cull.
i see that you want to defend it etc. but this is a paper item - bonuses are illusory and the alternatives are both plentiful and way way better
i would love to see a build that uses this item in a way that enchances the build. makes it work in a way that is not easily improved by simply droping the heartbreak and replacing it with meh rare. or a moonsorrow (that has cast speed..)
also - hearbreaker bonus does not scale when dual wielding. dual wielding Moonsorrows with 'dual wield cast speed' nodes scales in a pretty amazing way. cast speed for culler is pretty important to cull as many targets as possible
clearly you have not played a culling build or indeed ANY build that has gem space issues.
alot of summoning builds and a bunch of other support builds tend to have heavy gem space demands and heart breaker allows you to socket a spell + rarity + quantity if you so desire on a 3l off hand while still being able to use a shield . namely wheel of the storm sail.
a cullers job is to make sure he culls everything , not damage. no iir culler in existence is going to keep up with the 150 - 900k aoe dps builds that tend to map areas worthy of hauling around a culler. it is just not what they are built for.
so yeah if i was a stupidly high dps build that can more than easily carry a whole team of no dps players , I really dont think i will give two tosses if the guy with 500 irr 150 iiq who is making the yellows and gold mobs into veritable loot pinatas does like 10k dps.
a culler playing solo .. doesnt .... need... to .... cull because he is the only person attacking shit.
and even if we do not consider gem space , i know plenty of cullers who will dedicated 2 or 3 support slots to making sure the cull skill is fast and covers a good range. so yeah not needing the pretty crappy culling strike gem in the mix is a boon.
heart breaker is not only viable , it is actively desired , it is bizarre that I would see it mentioned on this thread.
just point me where i care about damage when culling..
and in the future - dont guess what i played and what i didnt. you are wrong in both cases. better stick to the item discussion
Last edited by sidtherat on Nov 25, 2014, 4:35:36 PM
In your build, any decently rolled ES shield with spell damage is going to outperform in. In any trapper build it's the same case. And if you find the Bear Trap very useful, you can still use it as a 3L or 4L somewhere elsewhere.
Actually, no, because I already have plenty of spell damage, ES is of negligible value to my build and I don't have "somewhere elsewhere" to socket what would then be an underpowered 4L Bear Trap. The power of this shield is that its buffed Bear Trap is completely self-contained, making it a swappable crowd control solution for melee fighters as well as trappers.
Regardless of what forum theorycrafters or even the original designer may have had in mind, you really have to make the build yourself to evaluate how well a specialized Unique works in practice. Of course it would be even better if it proc'ed more Power Charges or had more block chance, but those aren't necessarily make-or-break mods for this shield.
Last edited by RogueMage on Nov 25, 2014, 5:14:05 PM
culler 'saved a link'? what for? really.. try it yourself, just try it and compare to any caster vendor-dagger you find on the ground. HC or not - this is like 'free minutes' mobile operator gives you knowing full well youll never use them. 'pretended gain'. people fall for that.
spells (except for incinerate) are scaled with crit. thats the intended and real way. hearbreaker has no crit. this dagger - and it IS NOT DECENTLY ROLLED! - beats it. no problem, absolutely no problem.
has culling - that is a paper bonus because one can have easily absolutely sufficient and perfectly viable 5link for cull.
i see that you want to defend it etc. but this is a paper item - bonuses are illusory and the alternatives are both plentiful and way way better
i would love to see a build that uses this item in a way that enchances the build. makes it work in a way that is not easily improved by simply droping the heartbreak and replacing it with meh rare. or a moonsorrow (that has cast speed..)
also - hearbreaker bonus does not scale when dual wielding. dual wielding Moonsorrows with 'dual wield cast speed' nodes scales in a pretty amazing way. cast speed for culler is pretty important to cull as many targets as possible
clearly you have not played a culling build or indeed ANY build that has gem space issues.
alot of summoning builds and a bunch of other support builds tend to have heavy gem space demands and heart breaker allows you to socket a spell + rarity + quantity if you so desire on a 3l off hand while still being able to use a shield . namely wheel of the storm sail.
a cullers job is to make sure he culls everything , not damage. no iir culler in existence is going to keep up with the 150 - 900k aoe dps builds that tend to map areas worthy of hauling around a culler. it is just not what they are built for.
so yeah if i was a stupidly high dps build that can more than easily carry a whole team of no dps players , I really dont think i will give two tosses if the guy with 500 irr 150 iiq who is making the yellows and gold mobs into veritable loot pinatas does like 10k dps.
a culler playing solo .. doesnt .... need... to .... cull because he is the only person attacking shit.
and even if we do not consider gem space , i know plenty of cullers who will dedicated 2 or 3 support slots to making sure the cull skill is fast and covers a good range. so yeah not needing the pretty crappy culling strike gem in the mix is a boon.
heart breaker is not only viable , it is actively desired , it is bizarre that I would see it mentioned on this thread.
just point me where i care about damage when culling..
and in the future - dont guess what i played and what i didnt. you are wrong in both cases. better stick to the item discussion
Since you seem to be confused, let me point out to you where you mentioned damage on a culler here:
vendor-level random low lvl dagger i have in my stash. nothing fancy. mixed melee/spell stats. vendor. it provides better damage than heartbreaker - believe it or not.
links.. well i hope you understand that no serious spellcaster shall use hearbreaker for damage? even Moonsorrow is a better caster weapon. for utility - culler has enough links to support a 5link cull without hearbreaker. what makes it even worse - Heralds are not spells - so cull from heartbreaker does not apply
it isnt a garbage item. but it fails as badly in practice as it 'shines' on paper. ive tested it, tried to make it work. and failed horribly. the gimmicks are not worth it in real life.
You're continually making the mistake of evaluating Heartbreaker as a traditional spellcaster dagger, i.e comparing it to moonsorrow, whereas it's obviously designed as a culler's tool to drop a link, making the culler's job easier. If you are genuinely failing to make a proper build, with a dagger that make's a culler's job easier, the problem is not with the unique.
You're continually making the mistake of evaluating Heartbreaker as a traditional spellcaster dagger, i.e comparing it to moonsorrow, whereas it's obviously designed as a culler's tool to drop a link, making the culler's job easier.
We should also don't forget that Heartbreaker was implemented in sporker MFers age and then was every sporker wet dream.
I used my Heartbreaker on summoner though, culling Arc is always usable, doesn't need damage and it's always better to put IIR gem instead of Culling Strike gem.
