Crit is broke and it makes daggers OP. How to fix this?
1. Change the way crit mult works
Currently, crit multiplier = 150% * (1 + increased_crit_damage_percent).
It makes "+50%" crit damage turn into +75% crit damage. It's kinda strange and over the years of closed/open beta there has been a lot of nerfs to crit damage mods and nodes to try and mitigate this. The proper solution should have been to change the crit formula:
crit multiplier = 50% + (1 + increased_crit_damage_percent). Which is the same as making %crit damage mods additive to the base 150%.
2. Review dagger tree nodes
Daggers already have better base crit chance than most other melee weapons. Then you gave them so much crit in the tree to multiply this advantage, plus implicit on the daggers themselves, then we're in the intelligence zone so let's get power charges which make good crit chance into awesome crit chance... holy cow.
Crit in the tree (in large numbers and with a good base chance) is better than %damage nodes because those are additive only and you already get %damage from gem levels, strength and so on. The crit chance/damage are also additive but multiply each other for some sick synergy. So yeah, review dagger crit nodes and sources of crit in general, because this thing is out of control.
no.
Daggers can and do use the same damage, crit chance and crit multi passive nodes as the other weapons. The correct way of fixing daggers is nerfing dagger bases.
It is all through dumb that loath bane dagger has 555 dps with 9.21 base crit chance with 2+ aps and e.g. carrion bite mirror sword has 548 dps with 6.85 crit chance and 2.08 aps.
Everyone can easily see that this is not an imbalance induced by the passive tree (mainly) but by the base type of weapons. Ambusher has more dps, way more crit chance and about the same attack speed. In fact loath bane should have at least (!!!) the relative amount of more crit chance less in base dps:
9.21/6.85 = 1.344 = 34 % more base crit chance
548/1.344 = 407.7 dps
Instead of 407.7 dps loath bane has even slightly more dps than this sword. 34% more base crit chance translates into 34% more base crit chance. When a build with this sword has 50% crit chance, the dagger is gonna have 67.2% crit chance. As crit chance has an even bigger effect the more multiplier you have, base dps of loath bane should be even lower than these 407.7 dps to achieve balance. ~370-380 dps on loath bane would enable to roughly create a situation of balance. Instead it has 555 dps.
Everyone who denies this is obviously defending the overpoweredness of daggers with or without intense/knowledge. Passive nodes are generally used by all kind of weapon users. Nerfing dagger nodes is not really possible without affecting all other weapons that use the same crit/multi nodes etc.
Therefore I can't read this dagger passive nerf propaganda anymore. It is plain wrong. Dagger ambusher base is (555/375=1.48 = 48%) roughly 50% overpowered.
GGG does nothing about this since about a year.
I know people with 422k reave dps and 300k+ flicker strike dps. What weapons do they use? Daggers. What classes are them? Scion, shadow, ranger. This can't be fixed by slightly tweaking some passive nodes. Dagger bases need the heavy nerf hammer that they deserve or nothing will be ever changed.
Alternatively, GGG, you can buff the other one hands like 1h axes, swords, maces as e.g. carrion bite to about 800 base dps, if you think this is the way to go instead of nerfing daggers. But I wonder how the game would continue to be fun and challenging with everything being as overpowered as these daggers in fact are (and wands/claws to a certain extend too).
Crit is broke and it makes daggers OP. How to fix this?
1. Change the way crit mult works
Currently, crit multiplier = 150% * (1 + increased_crit_damage_percent).
It makes "+50%" crit damage turn into +75% crit damage. It's kinda strange and over the years of closed/open beta there has been a lot of nerfs to crit damage mods and nodes to try and mitigate this. The proper solution should have been to change the crit formula:
crit multiplier = 50% + (1 + increased_crit_damage_percent). Which is the same as making %crit damage mods additive to the base 150%.
2. Review dagger tree nodes
Daggers already have better base crit chance than most other melee weapons. Then you gave them so much crit in the tree to multiply this advantage, plus implicit on the daggers themselves, then we're in the intelligence zone so let's get power charges which make good crit chance into awesome crit chance... holy cow.
Crit in the tree (in large numbers and with a good base chance) is better than %damage nodes because those are additive only and you already get %damage from gem levels, strength and so on. The crit chance/damage are also additive but multiply each other for some sick synergy. So yeah, review dagger crit nodes and sources of crit in general, because this thing is out of control.
no.
Daggers can and do use the same damage, crit chance and crit multi passive nodes as the other weapons. The correct way of fixing daggers is nerfing dagger bases.
It is all through dumb that loath bane dagger has 555 dps with 9.21 base crit chance with 2+ aps and e.g. carrion bite mirror sword has 548 dps with 6.85 crit chance and 2.08 aps.
Everyone can easily see that this is not an imbalance induced by the passive tree (mainly) but by the base type of weapons. Ambusher has more dps, way more crit chance and about the same attack speed. In fact loath bane should have at least (!!!) the relative amount of more crit chance less in base dps:
9.21/6.85 = 1.344 = 34 % more base crit chance
548/1.344 = 407.7 dps
Instead of 407.7 dps loath bane has even slightly more dps than this sword. 34% more base crit chance translates into 34% more base crit chance. When a build with this sword has 50% crit chance, the dagger is gonna have 67.2% crit chance. As crit chance has an even bigger effect the more multiplier you have, base dps of loath bane should be even lower than these 407.7 dps to achieve balance. ~370-380 dps on loath bane would enable to roughly create a situation of balance. Instead it has 555 dps.
Everyone who denies this is obviously defending the overpoweredness of daggers with or without intense/knowledge. Passive nodes are generally used by all kind of weapon users. Nerfing dagger nodes is not really possible without affecting all other weapons that use the same crit/multi nodes etc.
Therefore I can't read this dagger passive nerf propaganda anymore. It is plain wrong. Dagger ambusher base is (555/375=1.48 = 48%) roughly 50% overpowered.
GGG does nothing about this since about a year.
I know people with 422k reave dps and 300k+ flicker strike dps. What weapons do they use? Daggers. What classes are them? Scion, shadow, ranger. This can't be fixed by slightly tweaking some passive nodes. Dagger bases need the heavy nerf hammer that they deserve or nothing will be ever changed.
Alternatively, GGG, you can buff the other one hands like 1h axes, swords, maces as e.g. carrion bite to about 800 base dps, if you think this is the way to go instead of nerfing daggers. But I wonder how the game would continue to be fun and challenging with everything being as overpowered as these daggers in fact are (and wands/claws to a certain extend too).
Loath Bane issue has been adrresed numerous time. It is the attack speed that causes all the problem, cause it scales elemental auras as well. Daggers should not be that fast. They already have the lowest base damage, and that;s cool. Their speed should stick 1.2 base maximum, and the 480DPS of a perfect demon dagger, with 1.53 speed should be the cap.
By the way, due to how chance to hit and evasion works, the actual crit chance cap is 85,7% crit with 95% crit chance and 95% which is impossible. On a normal high end crit build, with 95% crit chance and 85% chance to hit, the final crit chance is 68%, which would be pretty reasonable, if you could not do 10 attacks per second.
Loath Bane issue has been adrresed numerous time. It is the attack speed that causes all the problem, cause it scales elemental auras as well. Daggers should not be that fast. They already have the lowest base damage, and that;s cool. Their speed should stick 1.2 base maximum, and the 480DPS of a perfect demon dagger, with 1.53 speed should be the cap.
By the way, due to how chance to hit and evasion works, the actual crit chance cap is 85,7% crit with 95% crit chance and 95% which is impossible. On a normal high end crit build, with 95% crit chance and 85% chance to hit, the final crit chance is 68%, which would be pretty reasonable, if you could not do 10 attacks per second.
The problem hasnt been addressed at all yet. This is why we talk about it here.
One way of addressing it of course can be attack speed. Technically it would be the best way. Realistically daggers have high attack speed tho and it would be weird to hit faster with a huge axe/sword/mace than with a small knife.
Therefore I pledge for a more elegant solution that just heavily reduces the base damage of ambushers, maybe even slightly more increase its attack speed.
E.g. reduce loath bane damage to 350 dps, increase attack speed base of ambusher from 1.6 to 1.8 if that causes no other problems.
The easiest way to balance ambushers would probably just be a decrease of dps (loath bane again) to smth like 400 dps combined with a small crit chance reduction. This way it keeps its functionality of high frequency hitting but with way less dps and a bit less crit chance.
Of course all this doesnt fix the general problem of high vs low attack speed weapons.
Solely the relative appliance of damage mods on weapons based on the attack speed although would not fix the ambusher op 50% problem at all. As the highest swords have the same or even higher attack speed and therefore would be even more nerfed compared to loath bane.
Loath Bane issue has been adrresed numerous time. It is the attack speed that causes all the problem, cause it scales elemental auras as well. Daggers should not be that fast. They already have the lowest base damage, and that;s cool. Their speed should stick 1.2 base maximum, and the 480DPS of a perfect demon dagger, with 1.53 speed should be the cap.
By the way, due to how chance to hit and evasion works, the actual crit chance cap is 85,7% crit with 95% crit chance and 95% which is impossible. On a normal high end crit build, with 95% crit chance and 85% chance to hit, the final crit chance is 68%, which would be pretty reasonable, if you could not do 10 attacks per second.
The problem hasnt been addressed at all yet. This is why we talk about it here.
One way of addressing it of course can be attack speed. Technically it would be the best way. Realistically daggers have high attack speed tho and it would be weird to hit faster with a huge axe/sword/mace than with a small knife.
Therefore I pledge for a more elegant solution that just heavily reduces the base damage of ambushers, maybe even slightly more increase its attack speed.
E.g. reduce loath bane damage to 350 dps, increase attack speed base of ambusher from 1.6 to 1.8 if that causes no other problems.
The easiest way to balance ambushers would probably just be a decrease of dps (loath bane again) to smth like 400 dps combined with a small crit chance reduction. This way it keeps its functionality of high frequency hitting but with way less dps and a bit less crit chance.
Of course all this doesnt fix the general problem of high vs low attack speed weapons.
Solely the relative appliance of damage mods on weapons based on the attack speed although would not fix the ambusher op 50% problem at all. As the highest swords have the same or even higher attack speed and therefore would be even more nerfed compared to loath bane.
This actually will make the situation worse. Low life spectral throwers get 90% of their damage through elemental auras, so with higher speed they will end up with higher DPS, espeiaclly with the spell damage dagger. The physical part mainly helps them with leech rather than anything else. Speed reduction should do it. I know you can technically attack faster with a dagger BUT this not how an assasin would do it. He would go for a backstab in the hear or slice the throat. That's really what a critical strike is, and you definetely cannot do that fast :P
Tbh, the idea of nerfing dagger bases doesn't factor at all.
A dagger with ONLY attack speed and crit rolls (2 mods, 3 stat rare) with no physical can still easily go ~50k LMP spectral.
It's really nothing to do with daggers at all. Just crit scaling in general. Daggers are just the instrument of crit.
Thats not the whole picture. Of course this is one part of it but there are also these 422k physical dagger reave builds out there.
It is not all about st.
Nerfing dagger base dps can be done with attack speed nerfs btw. I never said that I want to nerf dagger base dps without a nerf of attack speed being involved.
The issue remains as I have stated:
loath bane 555 dps with 34% higher crit chance
similar sword/axe 550 dps without this crit chance increase.
