Would pay 50 bucks for a 2nd Inventory slot.

"

Idioticus wrote:

So if GGG sold xp boosters, it wouldn't be pay to win? You only save time, right?

But just for the sake of argument, if xp boosters are pay to win, wouldn't grinding more be "free to win"?

By definition, "P2W" is the ability of a player to purchase something that gives them an advantage over other players. It is also only obtained by purchasing it, either directly from the game or through a third party.

Stash tabs grant you up to six premium stash tabs with each purchase. This costs $20. $15 if you are willing to pass on the premium versions. This means that $5, or 25% of the maximum cost is purely for aesthetics.

Creating a new account offers four regular stash tabs and twenty-four characters. Totally free.

So you mean to tell me that you really want to compare something that is nowhere near P2W with something like an XP boost?

Protips:

1. Don't put yourself on the stupid side of an illogical argument. It reflects poorly on you.

2. Don't use "bad logic is bad logic" type attacks if you don't have any basis for your regular argument. Makes you look more like a troll. (And failing at it)

"

Idioticus wrote:

You directly contradict yourself.

How so?

"

Idioticus wrote:

If I don't buy stash tabs, I have to create mule accounts to store my items to the same extent as someone who does.

No, you don't.

Nobody requires additional stash tabs to store anything. I've been playing for a while and I have only used about eight characters for actual content, which means the remaining 16 can be used for storage.

Also, players generally sell their expensive gear from other builds to purchase gear for a build they haven't tried yet. This isn't always the case, but many do. This removes that "finished" character and provides a whole new character for storage.

"

Idioticus wrote:

So someone paid for something I cannot replicate exactly without paying. That by definition, is P2W.

I'll refer you to the definition that I have posted twice now:

Oh, you quoted it. No need.

I suggest you read it. It nowhere states that the advantage has to be in the exact same form as the purchasable option.

"

Idioticus wrote:

furthermore, how much time does this save? a lot of time. Actually, I can't use mule accounts because right now my computer can't run 2 PoE's at the same time, and I can't have a friend online all the time for me to trade my items between mules because PoE has no mailing system.

That is unfortunate. It also isn't anyone's problem but yours. Low end computers have low end capabilities.

Either way, stash tabs still require your character to run to the stash in question, begin looking for the item, and then get to the waypoint or instance door in order to continue.

A mule account (after being leveled and rushed, which doesn't take much time and offers a few gems along the way), can be sitting at a stash and be able to begin sifting through your stuff the moment you desire. If your computer takes a while to load, the advantage is yours because your main character will take a while to load. This makes mule accounts many times better because you can essentially avoid loading times.

If that isn't enough, trading allows two players to be anywhere in the same instance and trade items instantly. This means that a player could load into Sarn, trade for upgraded items with a mule, and go directly out into the next area without having to walk all the way around that long brigde/walkway to their stash. This would be incredibly painful if you had a low movement speed.

Cheap, low end computers that are still capable of running PoE go for just a hundred to a couple hundred bucks. Very cheap and they can be used for more than just Path of Exile, while the same amount in PoE would only get you 30 stash tabs.

"

Idioticus wrote:

The argument that stash tabs are not P2W is to say XP boosters are not P2W.

No, you are trying to twist the argument in a way it can't bend. Read the definition.

"

Natharias wrote:

yada yada yada

"

pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

If stash tabs save you time, (and that's what people argue is the only thing extra stash tabs do) it is by definition pay to win.

I'll clarify a little:
You can make use of orb recipes much better -> more orbs.
Orbs are used for crafting, along with their usage as currency -> better gear.

Saving time is worth in game money. The less time you spend logging in and out to move items between characters, the more time you can spend grinding.


Of the top 100 of any ladder, how many don't have extra stash tabs?

"

Idioticus wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

yada yada yada

"

pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

If stash tabs save you time, (and that's what people argue is the only thing extra stash tabs do) it is by definition pay to win.

I'll clarify a little:
You can make use of orb recipes much better -> more orbs.
Orbs are used for crafting, along with their usage as currency -> better gear.

Saving time is worth in game money. The less time you spend logging in and out to move items between characters, the more time you can spend grinding.


Of the top 100 of any ladder, how many don't have extra stash tabs?

Of the top 100 of any ladder, how many don't spend the majority of their day grinding until their knuckles literally turn white?

The people that spend so much time in this game are going to invest into it because they spend so much time on it.

Additionally, I'll guarantee you that the majority of the top 100 of any ladder are using mule accounts and do so regularly.

Either way, mule accounts offer the same thing that stash tabs offer. The only difference is that mule accounts are totally free. I'm not sure how you could be so stubborn and think stash tabs are pay to win.

"

Natharias wrote:

"

jstq wrote:

again, this would be pay2save time, same as stash tabs

Stash tabs are not pay to win nor anywhere close to being so.

But just for the sake of argument, if stash tabs are pay to win, wouldn't mule accounts be "free to win"?

Bag logic is bad logic. Stash tabs aren't pay to win.

I wasn't saying that tabs is p2w, read what I wrote again.

Not sure who is defending what, nor do I care, but here's the thing:
1 - Stash Tabs are not P2W. They don't make you do stuff faster or better. They're convenience.
2 - Extra Inventory size is definitely P2W if it's only available with cash.
A bigger inventory means less trips to town and less time spent deciding what to carry and what to leave behind.
Less trips to town means more time killing.
3 - Extra Inventory size is a stupid addition to the game on all fronts. It dumbs it down while adding no gameplay value.

There's nothing else to discuss here.

"

jstq wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

"

jstq wrote:

again, this would be pay2save time, same as stash tabs

Stash tabs are not pay to win nor anywhere close to being so.

But just for the sake of argument, if stash tabs are pay to win, wouldn't mule accounts be "free to win"?

Bag logic is bad logic. Stash tabs aren't pay to win.

I wasn't saying that tabs is p2w, read what I wrote again.

You said stash tabs save time.

If time is saved because you purchased something, you spend more time grinding.

You spend more time grinding, you get more loot and experience.

You now have more than any other player that doesn't purchase them.

That is pay to win.

So, yes, you were saying they are pay to win. You should note the conversation I had with Idioticus.

"

Nurvus wrote:

Not sure who is defending what, nor do I care, but here's the thing:

Then you aren't reading posts.

"

Nurvus wrote:

2 - Extra Inventory size is definitely P2W if it's only available with cash.
A bigger inventory means less trips to town and less time spent deciding what to carry and what to leave behind.
Less trips to town means more time killing.

Not necessarily.

Not all advantages are purchasable. They could be a one-time giveaway.

"

Nurvus wrote:

There's nothing else to discuss here.

You'd be surprised. I suggest you look at the conversation I had with Idioticus.

Some people just don't want to listen while still filled with a desire to make people wrong.

No, I don't understand why they do this, so don't ask.

"

Malone wrote:

I would pay 500$ to get 10 inventory slot. But this is definately pay to win since there is a limited number of portal , and more inventory is bypassing this limit.

"

Natharias wrote:

"

Nurvus wrote:

Not sure who is defending what, nor do I care, but here's the thing:

Then you aren't reading posts.

I read what I replied to, but didn't bother reading the pages before that.

"

Natharias wrote:

"

Nurvus wrote:

2 - Extra Inventory size is definitely P2W if it's only available with cash.
A bigger inventory means less trips to town and less time spent deciding what to carry and what to leave behind.
Less trips to town means more time killing.

Not necessarily.

Not all advantages are purchasable. They could be a one-time giveaway.

Yes, necessarily.
You simply didn't read the underlined part.

---
Even if it's a giveaway for everyone - like through a quest - it's still bad for the game.
It's just making things easier while adding nothing to gameplay.
---

Last but not least...
Player A already did the event/quest/whatever that grants him extra inventory slots.
Player B didn't.
...broken races.

Just leave Inventory alone.
Fix the damn casino crafting.

"

Nurvus wrote:

Yes, necessarily.
You simply didn't read the underlined part.

---
Even if it's a giveaway for everyone - like through a quest - it's still bad for the game.
It's just making things easier while adding nothing to gameplay.
---

Last but not least...
Player A already did the event/quest/whatever that grants him extra inventory slots.
Player B didn't.
...broken races.

Just leave Inventory alone.
Fix the damn casino crafting.

The whole post was oriented towards the underlined part. If you understood it you would've realized that.

Not all "P2W" type advantages have to be bought. Some are obtainable through other methods. The most common alternative is that of a giveaway that only some can participate in.

"

Natharias wrote:

"

Idioticus wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

yada yada yada

"

pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

If stash tabs save you time, (and that's what people argue is the only thing extra stash tabs do) it is by definition pay to win.

I'll clarify a little:
You can make use of orb recipes much better -> more orbs.
Orbs are used for crafting, along with their usage as currency -> better gear.

Saving time is worth in game money. The less time you spend logging in and out to move items between characters, the more time you can spend grinding.


Of the top 100 of any ladder, how many don't have extra stash tabs?

Of the top 100 of any ladder, how many don't spend the majority of their day grinding until their knuckles literally turn white?

The people that spend so much time in this game are going to invest into it because they spend so much time on it.

Additionally, I'll guarantee you that the majority of the top 100 of any ladder are using mule accounts and do so regularly.

Either way, mule accounts offer the same thing that stash tabs offer. The only difference is that mule accounts are totally free. I'm not sure how you could be so stubborn and think stash tabs are pay to win.

Implying that convenience can never bring any advantage.

Let's say you had to manually write your log in info and answer a captcha every time you tried to log in, and to avoid those you have to pay 5€.
Surely this gives no advantage whatsoever, because all you have to do is write some stuff.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this until you understand:
Saving time = Pay to win.

It's the reason why there's no way to pay your way through the queue when the servers are full. The only thing it does is save you time.

Tell me, what is the difference between staring at the queue numbers change and staring at the loading screen while you log in and out to move stuff?