D3 ROS loot/end game better then POE

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iamstryker wrote:

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mazul wrote:

It was very much dumbing down, no matter what opinion anyone has.

Removing forced pvp is not dumbing down anymore than removing pvp now would somehow dumb down pve.

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Kind of funny you have such a good memory about anubite XD.

I have a pretty good memory of loot options supporters because I was probably the biggest proponent of loot options.

Booooo

:P

Damn if D3 and PoE had a baby, that would be THE shit.

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Dragol wrote:

Damn if D3 and PoE had a baby, that would be THE shit.

Doubt it, as with most babies it would probably inherit just the flaws of both parents.

It is kind of sad that a lot of people deem it necessary to bitch at each other and not discuss items/ topic properly. Well the Op is shit and I noticed the topic sits now in feedback, so it is quite worthless anyways.

I like to note that the discussion should be around the endgame and loot, where you should objectively look at what d3 and PoE offers, how both games develop and so on.

Endgame:

Arpg are boring, the moment your grind you are not roleplaying and you are left with half the game. Fun is the moment your are building up your character at a more natural pace and it is especially important if choices matter and you are the one building this character (no trade).

I'm of the opinion that both games have a flawed and boring endgame. If PoE and D3 would have a baby it would have the exact same issue on the long run, since both games have already similar endgame issues. There is limited build variation possible through the skills system and in the case of PoE also passive tree, both games gate us towards endgame farming to expand build options or empower builds.
This might be due to the genre and definition of the Action RPG. Though I feel that serious game developers should be interested in breaking this trend. It is all about rng to incrementally boost your character and grinding maps or equivalents for a very long repetitive time.

That said I don't recall any game having a long lasting endgame without player vs player interaction. There might be a bit more challenging content possible in coop play-style, where team coordination adds another level of difficulty (think MMO(raids)), but we all know that such challenges can be overcome and new content needs to be generated to keep the players occupied. PoE relies on new content, but also on accessibility of existing content, the latter suffering from recent choices made or simply ignored ever since CB (sweep anyone?).

Play again:

What matters (to me) is the gameplay, the experience, the replay value a title has.

To me the process or replay-ability is far more important and here lies a big difference between PoE and D3. In PoE choice matters, however the degree of freedom in this choice has been diminishing due to Unique item design and what I feel have been bad balance changes. The competitive play is there, but at the cost of fun. Diablo 3 has less replay value, because you can easily try out numerous build variations in an instant on a single character.

Items:

Suggest reading my previous post as it is more detailed.

Where D3 gained terrain on PoE is in the unique item design. Unique items are pretty much always useful and do something fun. If you are within a range of -3 to +3 on your damage or toughness you can easily play around with this unique item. I read the link where some d3 players desire more loot and this is the exact same crowd that would use the AH. The only valid point made is that unique items need to be fun and like in PoE, D3 also has boring strong unique items or somewhat useless unique that do little or too much, but nothing unique. However right now D3 has a lot more unique items in the category "FUN".



The fun items and the self found nature of these are a lot of fun and is something PoE could learn from. It is very rewarding to slightly change your build and get to build you own character without trade. Eventually though gathering all the items for "insane" builds requires a lot of farming through tedious gameplay. Add to that the unwanted trade (for me) in PoE.

Item acquisition:

Neither title gets it right, there are however a few things PoE does well and that D3 does well.

Both D3 and PoE put their items behind RNG and perhaps too much RNG.

In Diablo 3 you can craft unique items, but to do this you need:

1. Rare materials which can only be acquired from salvaging unique items and or having a (small) random drop chance in rifts.
2. Rare recipe book to be able to make the item.
3. Rare ingredient from specific enemy encounters.
4. A map that spawns these mobs.
5. RNG roll on the crafting.

This process is actually quite fine apart from 3 and 4. It is ok to let the player farm for an ingredient or part to the recipe, but than one should be able to reliably farm that enemy. In Diablo 3 however there is no guarantee that the enemy will spawn, which means an endless cycle of creating new games. Very tedious especially since, there is no guarantee that the ingredient will drop (counts as an unique drop, from often a single enemy). Obviously the thing to do here is to create a less tedious farming process (guaranteed mob spawn) and compensate that by lowering the drop chance of the ingredient, but at least give the player the fight. Aimlessly opening and closing game sessions is a mega failure in game design.

In Path of Exile you don't get a chance to farm for certain items. The only gated farming is that x maps you get the chance at better unique items. I like how D3 keeps the value of low level unique drops through basic stats on the item, something that might be nice to see on some items in PoE. So in PoE we got a completely RNG process of acquiring items for your build, behind the RNG mapping system and not quite ready to the RNG socket system. This means that the vast majority of players won't get the drop for their build and find themselves re-rolling or going to the auction house, I mean poe.xyz, I mean trade. Self-found even for the trader is a far more rewarding game experience.
The one thing however PoE does have and D3 not so much are truly complex designed unique items. This makes them very niche, but it does create very interesting options. It is however also a downside to the game, since I feel the vast majority should be useful (which does not mean powerful) and above all else fun. In PoE however we see complex, useless and go to trade, far outweigh: useful and fun in unique item design. So it is nice they exist, but not so nice since what should be there is somewhat missing.

Edit: I like to add that having items fall in different categories (ES, evasion, armour, life) is interesting. It would be hard to combine with what d3 did, but having different gear options and defense mechanics is more rewarding as the choice matters.

Overall D3 has come to a point where PoE could learn and look at what they did and I never expected this to happen. This does not mean D3 >> PoE. Path of Exile is still the better game overall, but D3 got a lot closer and self-found is fun! and trading is not! I always believed this and D# confirmed this for me, the only ones having issues with self-found are those that
are stuck in the grind where there use to be an AH/ trade to take the easy route out.

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tinko92 wrote:

Given the experience with the new content, I doubt they'll implement something at this base that isn't gated behind RNG.

i don't know, at least the introduction of act 4 will be normal game content.

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tinko92 wrote:

"Cater to players"... If I want free content, not gated behind RNG, I want to be rewarded?

the restricted access to endgame content is part of the game rules, many games have rules that prevent you from certain things.
in poe it's the consequence of the game not invalidating your progress (endgame items in poe stay endgame items probaly forever) and not having some form of item degradation.

would you rather have a game where you risk losing all your gear in an ingame event, have it slowly degradate by corrosion or similar or turned into midgame gear every 4 months by an expansion for the advantage of having unlimited access to endgame?

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mazul wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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THEHORNEDRAT wrote:

The shitstorm that happened when d3 was released will happen here too. The trolls will come here and attempt to dumb down poe again. See: loot allocations.

Grim dawn and lineage3 and/or Eternal can't be released soon enough. Slackers.

If you think giving parties the option to play the way they want to play is "dumbing down poe" then you're just pretentious. Sorry.

It is dumbing down. Chris intended the cutthroat feeling to be an important of PoE. He loved competing with his team mates for looting.

Nowadays, you don't even need to think about how you collect loot, because people just play perma-allocation.

Removing a step of thinking is equivalent to dumbing down.

So then play in FFA loot.

Prior to loot options you weren't really "competing for loot" because the best loot were allocated to you anyway. The only way you would lose out is if you weren't paying attention, the loot dropped off screen, or you were slow to grab. So if that method was "competing for loot" it failed.

Loot options give you even more control over exactly how you want to play. That's another "level of thinking."

Sorry, your explanation reeks of the same kind of logic as being unable to turn off the rain because of "atmosphere." Sorry, I'd rather people have no atmosphere than have to play with 10 fps. I imagine that framerate is bad for the atmosphere too.

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raics wrote:

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Dragol wrote:

Damn if D3 and PoE had a baby, that would be THE shit.

Doubt it, as with most babies it would probably inherit just the flaws of both parents.

haha :)

A desyncing ARPG with little character customization, rerol-ability, shallow itemization, with gated endgame balanced around trading but without trading tools, slot-machine based progression & character building, with tons of RMT, RNG, RTFM...

run for the hills!!

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iamstryker wrote:

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Kind of funny you have such a good memory about anubite XD.

I have a pretty good memory of loot options supporters because I was probably the biggest proponent of loot options.

you and i know exactly that your mission of demanding loot allocation being optional in about 300-400 posts was just a method to turn poe into the babycare, casual permanent loot allocation game it is now. there are no free for all or allocated loot parties.

if you put people into a choice of having to compete with each other for success or have a pathed way of guaranteed success there is no real choice.

in the end it's the fault of ggg, imho for having a real choice, loot drops in permanent alloc would have needed to be nerfed to have a real choice.

sorry for derailing.

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geradon wrote:

you and i know exactly that your mission of demanding loot allocation being optional in about 300-400 posts was just a method to turn poe into the babycare, casual permanent loot allocation game it is now. there are no free for all or allocated loot parties.

You're assuming for the other side, doing that in discussions is bad form.

Besides, if it was 'hard but entertaining', there would still be people doing it. If, as you said, nobody does it anymore that means it was just badly implemented, annoying or just not suited for this game. Otherwise it's just saying PoE players don't like complex and engaging stuff, and are here just to pew-pew-pew all day long.

If that's the case we could talk why has the game ended up attracting the 'wrong crowd' instead. Because it doesn't seem like it follows the original 'vision' of the game.

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geradon wrote:

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tinko92 wrote:

Given the experience with the new content, I doubt they'll implement something at this base that isn't gated behind RNG.

i don't know, at least the introduction of act 4 will be normal game content.

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tinko92 wrote:

"Cater to players"... If I want free content, not gated behind RNG, I want to be rewarded?

the restricted access to endgame content is part of the game rules, many games have rules that prevent you from certain things.
in poe it's the consequence of the game not invalidating your progress (endgame items in poe stay endgame items probaly forever) and not having some form of item degradation.

would you rather have a game where you risk losing all your gear in an ingame event, have it slowly degradate by corrosion or similar or turned into midgame gear every 4 months by an expansion for the advantage of having unlimited access to endgame?

It probably will, but, given the previous experience, will it be higher than 67 lvl?


I am aware how things work here, I'm not sure why did you feel the need to give me a lesson about it.

Sorry but non-gated content doesn't bring up item degradation, at all. It's just another poor excuse for a gated content.

Just take a look around at other games, you'll see that PoE is the only game where situations is like that, and there is a reason for that, and it's not because PoE's gated content is extraordinary and a new sensation.

It's a shit system to keep people playing longer, artificial longevity which caused much more people to leave the game, not because they're not HC enough to play the game, but because gambling your way in the leveling process is a bullshit.

The same (or even prolonged if needed) longevity could've been done without gated content.


EDIT:
To comment your FFA loot allocation...

And why are almost all parties run as PA now?
How is having a choice a bad thing?