Not offering a full respec is a bad design choice.

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HAJIMEdj wrote:

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Joyrock101 wrote:

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I don't get how requiring players to reroll is bad design.

Because something as simple as doing significant research beforehand(that you should never be required to do) can be enough to make someone reroll later.

I still fail to see the problem with this.

Then you're incredibly ignorant.

In all honesty, after reading through many of your posts, joyrock, you haven't really offered up any proof that not offering a full respec is a bad design choice. You have offered up many examples of when it can be used, and you have offered up a few reasons why it might be beneficial.

If the reason is that "every other game is doing it," the counter-logic just might be that GGG does not want to make its game like every other marketed RPG. It just may end up being a niche game that hardcore gamers have been looking for. This may not end up being the game for casual gamers, or... It just might be. Progressing in the game at a casual pace may offer individuals more time to really look at the skill tree to think about things.

You mentioned that you can only see benefits of implementing the use of at least one full respec. Can you at least offer up any potential disadvantages of implementing it? Until you start acknowledging that there are advantages and disadvantages of implementing a respec system, you will seem close-minded yourself.

Yes, there are advantages and disadvantages of having a full respec system (or at least one respec) just as there are for the current system. So, what are the disadvantages of a respec system then (since you have opinionated some of the potential advantages)?

And if you want people to continue to take you seriously here, you may want to drop the name calling and mud slinging. Just in my humble opinion.

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Joyrock101 wrote:

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HAJIMEdj wrote:

I don't get how requiring players to reroll is bad design.

Because something as simple as doing significant research beforehand(that you should never be required to do) can be enough to make someone reroll later.

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HAJIMEdj wrote:

I still fail to see the problem with this.

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Joyrock101 wrote:

Then you're incredibly ignorant.

Ok mister "my opinion is the right one".

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Joyrock101 wrote:

This is not a game where you can simply say "Oh you need to think before you add skills"; the skill tree is MASSIVELY complex, and with so so many huge directions it can go in, you have to put in a significant amount of research.

For many, many people, this is not ideal - people like me want to just play the game the first time through, not research it. This doesn't mean we don't think, it just means we don't like to spend a significant amount of time researching the game before we commit, and we should not be punished for failing to do so.

Refusing to add a full respec is just that - punishing players for not researching their build. Diablo 2 had the same issue, which eventually got fixed - if you wanted your build to be viable on higher difficulties on D2, you had to do some significant research, especially if you wanted to do PVP.

Now I'm not saying(and really not in favor of) anything like paying for full respecs, or having an unlimited option or anything. The best decision would probably be something like one or two respecs per character, probably upon reaching a certain level. This would prevent it from being abused to just go to the newest cookie cutter build upon release, and would still require research once it's done - the difference is that we can then do that research at our own time, after we have played and enjoyed the game.

Hopefully the devs come to their senses and this feature gets implemented in some fashion, as it will greatly help the success of this game in the long run. I'd much rather see it get the success it deserves for some truly amazing ideas than be held back because they're sticking to an antiquated, outdated concept.

I don't see how the 1 or 2 respecs thing makes much sense. If you do that before level 20 its basically pointless. You can reroll to lvl 20 really fast so why even do that? You can also fix mistakes pretty easily in the current system.

Full respecs in the mid range to later levels is also bad because thats when its the most exploitable.

This game is a more hardcore ARPG. And when I say harcore I mean it in terms of game difficulty and learning about the mechanics before just throwing stat points around.

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Joyrock101 wrote:

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xreasonz wrote:

Yes, no yes no yes no . . .

My oppinion is true therefore yours is faulty. . .


Ps: i like it the way it is. Reasearch learn and adapt. the way a Hardcore Arpg should be.

There is no "way it should be", there is no right or wrong way to play a game. This is simply opening up options for others to play the game reasonably without hurting anyone who wants that more hardcore playstyle.

Your logic (on this particular issue) is flawed.

A real money auction house would also be OPTIONAL. It would still have extremely bad repurcussions to the overall health of the game for EVERYONE. Just because something is optional doesn't automatically mean that its a good thing.

Trust me I have thought about it. I argue for looting options regularly but its a completely seperate issue from this one. This is a very core design to the game that does effect all players and the overall health of the game.

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Joyrock101 wrote:

Then you're incredibly ignorant.

Through reading a lot of these posts i have 2 things to say -

1. Your kind of rude. When people don't agree with you, you resort too name calling.

2. Despite what you think, you have not offered any sort of proof for what you believe to be fact other than other games did it. Which isn't a viable argument.

Oh and in your very first post you said "Refusing to add a full respec is just that - punishing players for not researching their build.". Damn straight. You SHOULD be punished for not thinking about your choices. This is what makes developing your own successful character feel rewarding. Not changing your build 3/4ths of the way through the game.


If I were to compromise (I wouldn't) i would add a small quest halfway through act 1 that lets you completely respec. on normal only. and it can't be completed after you've played that single character for 2 hours.

From my experience, when you progress through game, you're supposed to use respec points in order to enhance your build and make it more optimal.

At First trying to go through the most optimal build you made will be painful, since most likely you won't be able to wield good enough weapons for your lvl.

On each difficulty you get couple of points to undo passives (most likely attribute loops you don't need)...
Also, it's not that hard to get currency items to buy a couple of orb of regrets later.

Full Respecs would actually be painful for most of the players, since there are no confirmation buttons and it's easy to click something by accident. On myself I felt that pain a lot of times when there was lots of full respecs due to vital skill tree changes.

Ps. 1st Character you make will be probably bad and need a whole lot of customizing.


Joyrock :

Well, a Sequoia skill tree seems complicated at first, but it's better than earlier CBT when you had 4 choices at first and not so good highways to other classes areas.

On my own, I'm doing it mostly without any research (probably because of some experience I had on CBT too).

It's easy to make a solid build, especially on characters which are not hybrid classes (Witch,Ranger,Marauder).

Witch : Cold/Fire/Lightning Element + Chaos Innoculation (later) + Energy Shield nodes + Critical Chance/Multiplier Nodes + Mana Nodes

Marauder: Resolute Technique + Life Nodes (especially those near starting area) + 2 Handed Mace Nodes + Resolute Technique (as early as possible) + Life Regen Nodes + Armour Nodes + Elemental Resistance (a whole lot in starting area)

Ranger: Bow/Projectile Damage Nodes + Evasion Nodes + Elemental Damage Nodes + Iron Reflexes (up to preference) + Mana Nodes (either Mana Leech or +% Mana)



This games punishes a "I don't care about anything at all and I'm charging always forward like a Freakin' Superhero" attitude quite harshly.

Your character isn't only build too ... I think it's more oriented on harmony between character skills tree (1/2),Equipment (1/4),Gem Skills (1/4)

Every bit helps, and even with bad build or bad equipment you can do it as long as you can think of some cowardly, but wise tactic.

Not having the option to full respec is the best what could happen to the game.

I played my Witch in the last days to level 46 and had so much fun and challange! Now I am at the point, where i recognise: My "Glas-Cannon"-Build is not gonna work. I pay the greed for Crit-Multiplicator in experience.
But i knew that this could come, i was just like "I will try it my own way, perhaps it rocks, perhaps i fail".

Now I am stuck with that Character at Level 46. I need to change very much on her, or just start a new Character. But im absolutely happy with this. I was just like "Wow, great. The Game has beaten me".

I missed that feeling for at least 5 Years in gaming industry. Thanks! And dont make respec available just because them Noobs are QQing :D

It comes down to this. I will never do PvP if full respecs are offered in any form except when the skill tree is updated. Even that is pushing it for me, and I hope it won't happen again.

You do not deserve a free respec. You didn't earn it. The only correct way to "earn" a build is to carry that build through the game and level it up yourself. It's meaningless if you just get to max level with a safe build and then respec into something crazy and fun without having to actually work at it.

If you don't get that, then this discussion is over, because frankly there is no discussion going on when some new guy just decides he knows better than the devs and the paying supporters who've been with the game since the beginning... This game was clearly not designed for you, sir.

I hope you come around, I really do, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

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dashgalaxy86 wrote:

It comes down to this. I will never do PvP if full respecs are offered in any form except when the skill tree is updated. Even that is pushing it for me, and I hope it won't happen again.

You do not deserve a free respec. You didn't earn it. The only correct way to "earn" a build is to carry that build through the game and level it up yourself. It's meaningless if you just get to max level with a safe build and then respec into something crazy and fun without having to actually work at it.

If you don't get that, then this discussion is over, because frankly there is no discussion going on when some new guy just decides he knows better than the devs and the paying supporters who've been with the game since the beginning... This game was clearly not designed for you, sir.

I hope you come around, I really do, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

+1000. You win the thread.

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TheBlackYeti wrote:

+1000. You win the thread.

How many internets do I get?


One more point. I like the Shadow and the Duelist. I plan to have at least 3 of each because of the different build ideas I have. I would be robbed of a purpose to do this if there were free respecs. This means I would also end up spending a lot less time with the game. I'd move on, quit spending money, and wait until the next major content update before coming back. By allowing us to respec GGG would in fact be taking away the motivation to keep playing from its core paying audience. They have a word for that: suicide