Amount of grinding in PoE, compared to Diablo 2

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Zalm wrote:

Well, it seems your only issue is generally how fast it is to get to end game. In d2 its less than a week, while here is about a week. Am I getting this right?

There might be of course other reasons, but the main reason for this post is that grinding takes too long(a week) compared to d2(2 days). Yes?

It's not the only issue I have with the game. But yeah, for my playstyle it makes a world of difference.

High grinding times are more aimed at people focussing on one character.

In an aRPG I like to play a lot of different characters with different builds. This makes all that grinding time adding up very demotivating, and in the end I just come to the conclusion: screw this, I'm gonna play MMO style and just play 1 character only 4PoElife.

But of course being basically forced to end up with that solution is not my ideal picture. But it's my only solution right now to still enjoy PoE.

This entire thread is flawed. If you played through Diablo 2 in all areas (yes, there actually is an Act 3, the game doesn't go from Act 2 straight to Durance of Hate) then it, too, would take quite a while. The reason you could rush through that game so quickly is skipping past content and getting higher level players to help you.

How is Path of Exile that different? Don't people like that Kripparian dude get new characters back up to A3 Merci within a few hours? Pretty sure you can hit level 65 under 7 hours without that much effort.

Definitely skewed reasoning here. Yes, infinite Baal runs were so much more enjoyable /sarcasm

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Geertwilbert wrote:

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SlixSC wrote:

I don't really see your point. D2 really had no endgame in that sense. It was just endless boss runs. You could easily compare these boss runs with Piety runs and gearing a character to kill Piety in Merciless really doesn't take very long.

The problem here really is your skewed perspective. You are not comparing the D2 endgame (boss runs) with it's PoE equivalent (boss runs, such as piety), but rather something that had no equivalent in D2 (maping) and should thus be seen as additional content.

I know people get massive boners when talking about D2, but realistically it's not that great of a game, it was a good game back when PC gaming was still in it's infancy, but most of these "omg D2 so bawsome" arguments are more based on nostalgic feelings rather than good logic.

I see endgame as farming high lvl areas where potentially "best loot in the game" can drop, or at least close to that. After all, the game is mostly about loot. Therefore I don't see Piety merciless runs as endgame, cause nobody wants to farm in the poor mans areas and find only poor mans loot at best. I don't see maps as "extra content". It was always intended as the endgame. I see it as the equivalent to D2 MF runs.

I don't agree at all with your last statement. D2 is simply the best aRPG, even if you remove all nostalgia. Granted, the engine is now a bit dated, but it's still loads of fun to play today.

Literally every single statement you made in this post is subjective. Great, you have an opinion, why should anyone else care?

If you can't substantiate your opinion with actual facts then I'm sorry... nobody cares.

I won't have this debate by the way, I have too much self-respect to waste my time arguing with people who think that their opinion should be taken seriously, even if they can't substantiate it.

I've had too many of these debates in the past and they always made me feel like I was trapped inside an MC Escher staircase painting.

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Ameluxen wrote:

How is Path of Exile that different? Don't people like that Kripparian dude get new characters back up to A3 Merci within a few hours? Pretty sure you can hit level 65 under 7 hours without that much effort.

Even though I agree with your argument, let's at least be fair here. Kripp did not reach A3 Merci within a few hours and no you cannot reach level 65 in under 7 hours, unless you have leveling gear and a bunch of uniques (and even then I think 7 hours would be close). Not even the best racers can do that (solo that is, I don't know about grouping, but I highly doubt it).

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Geertwilbert wrote:

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Zalm wrote:

Well, it seems your only issue is generally how fast it is to get to end game. In d2 its less than a week, while here is about a week. Am I getting this right?

There might be of course other reasons, but the main reason for this post is that grinding takes too long(a week) compared to d2(2 days). Yes?

It's not the only issue I have with the game. But yeah, for my playstyle it makes a world of difference.

High grinding times are more aimed at people focussing on one character.

In an aRPG I like to play a lot of different characters with different builds. This makes all that grinding time adding up very demotivating, and in the end I just come to the conclusion: screw this, I'm gonna play MMO style and just play 1 character only 4PoElife.

But of course being basically forced to end up with that solution is not my ideal picture.

I suppose 5-6 more days to grind out a end game character could be daunting, but its still only a few days, and its not like that character goes away. Your still end game with your build.

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SlixSC wrote:

Literally every single statement you made in this post is subjective. Great, you have an opinion, why should anyone else care?

If you can't substantiate your opinion with actual facts then I'm sorry... nobody cares.

I won't have this debate by the way, I have too much self-respect to waste my time arguing with people who think that their opinion should be taken seriously, even if they can't substantiate it.

I've had too many of these debates in the past and they always made me feel like I was trapped inside an MC Escher staircase painting.

I never said anyone should care. Dunno how you imagine making a discussion like this completely objective and fact-based. Obviously it isn't. You probably shouldn't be here idd if you're looking for that, I wish you and your self-respect good luck.

My new Scion, lvl69 in Nemesis, reached that point in a bit less than 24h of playing and is doing maps. I didn't level it with the idea of going the fastest I can and I made it solo, so a lot of people could do it way faster. So I guess you can get to end game pretty fast in PoE too.

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Geertwilbert wrote:

The thing is also that there's already sooooo many games where you can have long grinds. It's so disappointing that PoE comes from an idea that D2 was a great game, and then decides to add it's own twist by making the grinds a lot longer. There's so many alternatives and choices already. But alternatives for D2, with the D2 structure of making characters and leveling? Not so much, actually.

I do get the feeling PoE wants to be an MMO, and attracts a lot of MMO players. I'm not sure if it tried to mix aRPG and MMO from the beginning, but the differences between these genres are there for a reason, and in this case of the leveling pace the mix-up of the two doesn't hit the right note if you ask me. Obviously, fans of the classic MMO gameplay will find it just fine, and even forgiving maybe.

But personally I did hope PoE would lean more towards the aRPG roots than MMO.

Do you know how idiotic is for a 95+ lvl character to get to lvl 100?

Reroll hard rolls, skip bosses, slaughter white/magic packs, for weeks, months.

Palace Dominus takes too long to be killed = severely reduced time/exp relation + a chance for a one-shot = skip

Courtyard map is bugged, boss triggering is applied to all players who were in the instance, even though 5 out of 6 left before the 6th entered the boss room.

Not to mention you have to be lucky and/or wealthy in order to proceed with the leveling process

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Geertwilbert wrote:

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SlixSC wrote:

Literally every single statement you made in this post is subjective. Great, you have an opinion, why should anyone else care?

If you can't substantiate your opinion with actual facts then I'm sorry... nobody cares.

I won't have this debate by the way, I have too much self-respect to waste my time arguing with people who think that their opinion should be taken seriously, even if they can't substantiate it.

I've had too many of these debates in the past and they always made me feel like I was trapped inside an MC Escher staircase painting.

I never said anyone should care. Dunno how you imagine making a discussion like this completely objective and fact-based. Obviously it isn't. You probably shouldn't be here idd if you're looking for that, I wish you and your self-respect good luck.

I mean technically you are right, because even how we evaluate facts is a philosophical process that is different for all of us, but if you really think it's impossible to substantiate your opinion with facts then the problem might just be that your opinion is nonsense.

You only reference D2 as the be all end all of ARPG gaming and subsequently argue that PoE should be more like it, which is a statement that I disagree with (personally I thought D2 was good for it's time, but would be a subpar game today), so where does that leave us?

Leveling is fast enough in PoE imo. You can get to 80 in a week if you play 3 hours a day. You need 2 days if you no-life it out.

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SlixSC wrote:

You only reference D2 as the be all end all of ARPG gaming and subsequently argue that PoE should be more like it, which is a statement that I disagree with (personally I thought D2 was good for it's time, but would be a subpar game today), so where does that leave us?

Well, even if you take any mention of D2 completely out of the equation, on it's own I don't see the merits of excessive grinding in PoE (or any game for that matter) at all, which I already elaborated on in earlier replies.

That leaves us just here, me being bored with the level grind, and other people obviously being fine with it.

Dunno the point of posts like mine, just want to vent and give some feedback. Obviously the chance it has any effect on GGG is less than 0,0001%