Path of life nodes

"

symban wrote:

Want to rant here as well. PoE messed up by making evasion/armor with diminishing return, but not doing something about life and of course block.

M&M series (25 year ols RPG game) knew better than modern PoE.
In M&M each class has a base life and flat life gain per lvl.
After that you can increase your life by increasing endurance stat which makes %increase to your base life. Also endurance gain has very significant diminishing return. First 40~ endurance makes a big difference, but an additional 50 over your 150 wont move total hp much.
Also there were item mods with +flat life which was not effected by endurance bonus.

It was a well done balanced system. You could focus on life for extra survival. But you could not double your base life even if you focused life like a mofo.

In PoE I can tenfold increase my base life at lvl80.. Just seriously WTF?! Of course they can not balance the game like that.

Might and Magic and PoE are just too different games to be compared.
It's not relevant at this point honestly, else you have to compare the whole games, not just one small piece of it.

EHP modifier = 1 / (1 - mitigation)

For example, 75% block has EHP modifier = 1/(1-.75) = 1/.25 = 4.

Armour EHP modifier = 1 / (1 - (a / (a + 12*d)))
= 1 / ( (a + 12*d)/(a + 12*d) - (a / (a + 12*d))
= 1 / ((12*d)/(a + 12*d))
= (a + 12*d)/(12*d)
= a/12*d + 1

Armour increases your EHP against physical hits linearly, with the same "diminishing returns" as increasing your Life (which means: effectively none). The only difference is that the size of the hit determines the linear slope.

Hello just tuned it.

To the poster above: What the hell is your point?

Ontopic: Path of life nodes is one of the factors that disturbs me most about this game.

It's because as a melee, you have to invest way too much into defense. This affects melee build diversity VERY MUCH

You see the same pathing in the passive tree over and over when looking at melee builds. All the best life nodes (+30 life. life regen, 16% incr life nodes on the route to IR. US, RT,)

10/10 post

"

Startkabels wrote:

To the poster above: What the hell is your point?

People saying armour has diminishing returns. It really doesn't.

Eh yeah I don't need any formula's to know armour sucks balls without IR / charges / immortal call / determination / granite flasks

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

Startkabels wrote:

To the poster above: What the hell is your point?

People saying armour has diminishing returns. It really doesn't.

It does, just of a different type that is tied to "x = current hp/damage done per hit", with x being how many hits are needed to kill you. The higher the damage the less armor impacts hits needed to die because it scales a LOT higher a LOT faster. Stacking armor and going from dead in two hits to... dead in two hits effectively meant that the armor formula suffered from a harsh diminishing return that might have been better off being used for some evade, block or end charges. At least adding 5% more evade or block would do something, whereas 5% more hp or armor might not impact how many hits you survive at all with those large hits.


edit - so essentially its a system of diminishing returns where it becomes more expensive/difficult to reach those breakpoints that change total hits to die and those costs for doing so take more from other areas then they return.

While melee builds using full armour actually deserve the best armour, I rest my case...

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

The true inmbalance is not life itself, but how it is increased by passives. Base life is gained via gear (generally), while life modifier is gained through passives. To get enough life, you should have both = path of life nodes is mandatory in skill tree, as you just cant get enough life modifier from gear.

You just passed by the answer. Look at bolded part; as long as passives also increase the extra life from item mods, it will never be possible.

Only way of ensuring that you may get enough life from item mods is separating the life gain from passives and item mods. They should be additive not multiplicative.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

*formula*
Armour increases your EHP against physical hits linearly, with the same "diminishing returns" as increasing your Life (which means: effectively none). The only difference is that the size of the hit determines the linear slope.

Problem with armor is not how the formula scales on paper. Problem is the effectiveness vs situations where damage mitigation is really needed. PoE has a poor design in terms of combat challenge, which is why they needed invasion type oneshot or faceroll enemies. What people gear towards is the oneshot damage, not those puny little hits.

Look at block: If you have %60 block it means on average you will avoid %60 of incoming attacks, effectively receiving %40 damage. Getting another %15 block means 15/40 = %42,5 more damage reduction. Resists also work same way.

Now lets take Block together with life; any increase to your life via passives or item mods will be boosted by the other as they are cumulative. And that gain is further amplified by the damage mitigation you receive from block/spell block/resists.
Effectively with very high block/resists the survival granted by any life gain is multiplied significantly.

Lets look at armor now: Due to formula the damage that would oneshot you is mitigated very ineffectively by armor. What's worse is that if you have 20k armor and you will be crit for 8k damage, getting another 5k armor will give %4 more damage reduction only. Not even close to the effect of getting another %15 block or resist.

Effectively if you want more survival that matters, life is always superior to armor by a big margin. I believe the fault does not lie with armor, and armor is the only properly working mechanic in the game. Fault lies with life increase types being multiplicative, and resist/block formula having increasing returns. If anything armor should stay as it is and the rest should be reworked.

I know some people think core game mechanics are never reworked, but D3 just recently announced DEX rework for armor. It happens, and it should happen.

@Jiero: No, that is not a system of diminishing returns. Diminishing returns has a definition. The rate of improvement is linear and does not change. You might claim that the returns are shitty; you cannot claim they are diminishing.

I cannot even understand who is attacking armour and who is defending it here, can we please agree that it sucks thanks!