Path of life nodes

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

@Jiero: No, that is not a system of diminishing returns. Diminishing returns has a definition. The rate of improvement is linear and does not change. You might claim that the returns are shitty; you cannot claim they are diminishing.

Rate of improvement is linear but its return is what diminishes as a percentage of the damage done as it scales higher until it hits the bell curve that drops it off the chart as it nears one shot kill damage.

100% of your life done in one hit needs 1% reduction to double your lifespan, and 51% to triple it... something that needed a much small curve at lower damage levels back when those higher reduction level were actually attainable. Just like how 10% of your max life done in a hit will kill you in 10 hits, 1% reduction added a extra hit to make you die in 11, 5% doubled your life to last 20 hits, and 9% added 10x to your lifespan to make it need 100 hits. Essentially the same armor levels at lower damage level boost you a LOT more a LOT quicker then at higher damage levels until damage scales to the point that armor isn't doing anything anymore.


edit - and that was basing it all on player max hp vs damage done. So 10% reduction (on a player with 1k hp taking 200 damage hits) would be needing to lower the damage of a hit by 100, which is 1600 armor and would double his lifepan. At the same time having 5k hp and needing to lower damage by 51% of max hp means 40,800 armor to add 50% more lifespan. And I'm willing to bet that hitting that 1,600 is a hell of a lot easier then hitting 40k is.


and it isn't armor scaling itself that is diminishing but rather that of armor as the sum of it, player HP and monster damage are scaling up that is what is causing diminishing results overall.

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Jiero wrote:

Rate of improvement is linear but its return is what diminishes as a percentage of the damage done as it scales higher until it hits the bell curve that drops it off the chart as it nears one shot kill damage.

Monster damage doesn't change; it's different in different areas, but it doesn't change. What does change is how much armour you stack.

Because monster damage is not a variable, armour does not have diminishing returns.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Jiero wrote:

Rate of improvement is linear but its return is what diminishes as a percentage of the damage done as it scales higher until it hits the bell curve that drops it off the chart as it nears one shot kill damage.

Monster damage doesn't change; it's different in different areas, but it doesn't change. What does change is how much armour you stack.

Because monster damage is not a variable, armour does not have diminishing returns.

Scrotie do you agree that the effective damage mitigation from increase in armor have diminishing returns vs high damage (unlike resists or how effective block gets with further increase in their number) ?

Considering you will agree as it is true, what are you really claiming here??

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symban wrote:

Scrotie do you agree that the effective damage mitigation from increase in armor have diminishing returns vs high damage (unlike resists or how effective block gets with further increase in their number) ?

Considering you will agree as it is true, what are you really claiming here??

I don't, because it doesn't have diminishing returns against any particular amount of damage.

Linear function = cannot be diminishing returns by its very definition, no matter how shitty the slope is

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Jiero wrote:

Rate of improvement is linear but its return is what diminishes as a percentage of the damage done as it scales higher until it hits the bell curve that drops it off the chart as it nears one shot kill damage.

Monster damage doesn't change; it's different in different areas, but it doesn't change. What does change is how much armour you stack.

Because monster damage is not a variable, armour does not have diminishing returns.

Right, at a fixed input damage D and armor value A,

EHP = HP * 1/(1-damage_reduction) = HP * (A + 12D) / (12 D) = HP * (1 + (1/12)(A/D)),

so EHP is some linear polynomial in A -- d(EHP)/dA = HP / (12 D), a constant.

"Diminishing returns" is often not the best term, since people have a tendency to interpret it differently. (Say, as marginal multiplicative return rather than additive.)

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symban wrote:

Considering you will agree as it is true, what are you really claiming here??

Armour indeed doesnt have diminishing returns. It's just WEAK. First, it works only against physical. Second, block (when capped) provides much higher EHP. Third, Immortal Call exists (physical immunity) and makes armour even more obsolete. Deep investment into armour is often NOT justified, as benefit is too small. You still need to overcap elemental res, and those have INCREASING returns.

That's why you cant rely on armour as primary defence. Same with evasion. Only life and ES are true primary defences, as they save you against everything. The one of reason for "path of life nodes".

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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symban wrote:

Considering you will agree as it is true, what are you really claiming here??

Armour indeed doesnt have diminishing returns. It's just WEAK. First, it works only against physical. Second, block (when capped) provides much higher EHP. Third, Immortal Call exists (physical immunity) and makes armour even more obsolete. Deep investment into armour is often NOT justified, as benefit is too small. You still need to overcap elemental res, and those have INCREASING returns.

That's why you cant rely on armour as primary defence. Same with evasion. Only life and ES are true primary defences, as they save you against everything. The one of reason for "path of life nodes".

Another being that life leech/gain/regen is overall very strong, with leech/regen rate scaling with max HP on top of that. It's easy to keep your tank at full, so to speak.

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syrioforel wrote:

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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symban wrote:

Considering you will agree as it is true, what are you really claiming here??

Armour indeed doesnt have diminishing returns. It's just WEAK. First, it works only against physical. Second, block (when capped) provides much higher EHP. Third, Immortal Call exists (physical immunity) and makes armour even more obsolete. Deep investment into armour is often NOT justified, as benefit is too small. You still need to overcap elemental res, and those have INCREASING returns.

That's why you cant rely on armour as primary defence. Same with evasion. Only life and ES are true primary defences, as they save you against everything. The one of reason for "path of life nodes".

Another being that life leech/gain/regen is overall very strong, with leech/regen rate scaling with max HP on top of that. It's easy to keep your tank at full, so to speak.

Yes, you're right. It isnt just HP pool scales with life, but leech rate, regeneration (except weak regen from items that no one ever use), stun, chill, freeze and shock protection - all are based upon LIFE. And life nodes are mandatory to get high amounts of life, because gear cant have life multiplier.
Anyone still wonder, why PoE is "path of life nodes"?

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Yes, you're right. It isnt just HP pool scales with life, but leech rate, regeneration (except weak regen from items that no one ever use), stun, chill, freeze and shock protection - all are based upon LIFE. And life nodes are mandatory to get high amounts of life, because gear cant have life multiplier.
Anyone still wonder, why PoE is "path of life nodes"?

(Bolded stuff quite important, given capped resists.)

Also you can dip into it as a mana replacement :)

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syrioforel wrote:

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Yes, you're right. It isnt just HP pool scales with life, but leech rate, regeneration (except weak regen from items that no one ever use), stun, chill, freeze and shock protection - all are based upon LIFE. And life nodes are mandatory to get high amounts of life, because gear cant have life multiplier.
Anyone still wonder, why PoE is "path of life nodes"?

(Bolded stuff quite important, given capped resists.)

Also you can dip into it as a mana replacement :)

And you can use mana as a life replacement, up to a certain degree (MoM). Blood Magic users arent the only ones who use "path of life nodes". Even MoM chars still take a bulk of life nodes.