Avatar of Fire question

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inDef wrote:

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Gobla wrote:

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inDef wrote:

Would someone mind clarifying this for me?

Let's say I have:

30% increased cold damage with weapons.
30% increased fire damage with weapons.
And a total of 100% increased two handed weapon damage.

Let's say I hit something with a two hander and deal 80 physical damage and 20 cold damage.

Is this what happens?

50% of all my damage is converted to fire for 50 fire damage.

The final output damage is then calculated by:

50 * (1 + 30/100 + 30/100 + 100/100) = 50 * 2.6 = 130 fire damage.

Is this correct? So even though I only did 20 original cold damage, I get the full 30% increased to ALL my fire damage?

Since there is no plain two handed weapon damage increase I'll assume you're talking about two handed physical damage increase.

Your 80 physical damage is converted to 40 fire damage, because this damage is converted it could be seen as having both the physical and fire tags. Increased is additive so, going by our 'tags', for this damage there's a 130% increase. So here we get 92 fire damage.

Your 20 cold damage is converted to 10 fire damage, against since it's converted we can treat it as having cold and fire tags. So it gets a 60% increase for a total of 16 fire damage.

Adding these two together gives you 108 fire damage total.

Overall, in this situation, picking Avatar of Fire wouldn't be a good choice.

Awesome that's what I thought. So the trick to AoF is converting as much damage as you can on each attack, so that the attack gets as many modifiers as possible. Thanks man!

The first requirement is to use Blackgleam, Chernobog's Pillar, Cold to Fire or Infernal Blow to convert as much damage as possible to fire. Because the conversion percentage is, due to your inability to deal non-fire damage, multiplicative unlike increased damage which is additive.

This means you'd need double the amount of increased damage nodes to compensate and there's simply no way you'll have enough points for that.

After that you're very right. You want to take full advantage of the fact that your damage is increased by different modifiers. On top of that the most major thing about AoF in my opinion is that dealing 100% fire damage you have massive potential for burning damage.

So ideally you want to make full use of your newfound potential to deal single huge hits of fire damage boosted by the easy to get damage increases. Infernal Blow, Burning Arrow, Ethereal Knives and Bear Trap are prime candidates because with all of them you can achieve 100% converted damage in single big hits that can all take full advantage of the Increased Fire Damage support for massive burns.

For example, Chin Sol + Blackgleam + Point Blank + Avatar of Fire + Burning Arrow + Increased Weapon Elemental Damage + Increased Fire Damage + Chance to Ignite + Increased Burning Damage + all Increased Burning Damage nodes + Elemental Profileration.

You fire a single arrow at close range dealing 150% more fire damage, it's got about a 50% chance to ignite. If it does it'll burn for 300% of the full hit over four seconds on all enemies in Profileration range.

So if you normally do 200 fire damage you'll hit for 500 fire damage at close range. Which, if it ignites, burns for 2000 damage over the following 4 seconds. Of course, 200 is only Chin Sol's base damage. If you pick a few increased bow damage and fire damage nodes here and there along with a few modifiers on your equipment and perhaps even an offensive curse you're going to be dealing a heck load more as normal damage, which will burn for 10 times if you ignite at close range.

AoF, IB+IPD+WED+FirePen+AddedFire

Is pretty much uber damage. Double multiplicatives ftw.

So if I make an AoF bow ranger and use Ice Shot, I'll be losing a shitton of damage?
Because 30% of damage is converted to cold and then 50% of that 30% is shifted to fire and 50% of the 70% left over is done as fire.
I think I just confused myself.
Is it possible to make a "good" AoF Ranger? I mean, I'd obviously be using Burning Arrow and Explosive Arrow, but Ice Shot is the only other one I can think of with Added fire, cold to fire, fire pen. God I hate/love the bow skills so much.
Give me some hints ladies and gentlemen

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Owtwem wrote:

So if I make an AoF bow ranger and use Ice Shot, I'll be losing a shitton of damage?
Because 30% of damage is converted to cold and then 50% of that 30% is shifted to fire and 50% of the 70% left over is done as fire.
I think I just confused myself.
Is it possible to make a "good" AoF Ranger? I mean, I'd obviously be using Burning Arrow and Explosive Arrow, but Ice Shot is the only other one I can think of with Added fire, cold to fire, fire pen. God I hate/love the bow skills so much.
Give me some hints ladies and gentlemen

I been thinking about doing an Ice Shot AoF scion but haven't started it yet. Blackgleam helps the build alot but it's not necesarciy
Take 100% phys bow, ice shot with cold to fire gem and added fire, hatred aura
40% physical->cold(Ice shot) will be 40% even with blackgleam since skills takes priority in conversion
50% physical ->fire(AOF) will be 60% with blackgleam
39% extra fire damage from physical(added fire damage)
40% extra cold damage from physical(hatred)
100% cold-> fire(AoF+cold to fire gem)

Gives:
80% of physical as fire that will benefit from physical+cold+fire
99% of physical as fire that will benefit from physical+fire

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Owtwem wrote:

So if I make an AoF bow ranger and use Ice Shot, I'll be losing a shitton of damage?
Because 30% of damage is converted to cold and then 50% of that 30% is shifted to fire and 50% of the 70% left over is done as fire.
I think I just confused myself.
Is it possible to make a "good" AoF Ranger? I mean, I'd obviously be using Burning Arrow and Explosive Arrow, but Ice Shot is the only other one I can think of with Added fire, cold to fire, fire pen. God I hate/love the bow skills so much.
Give me some hints ladies and gentlemen

Let's say you do 100 physical damage with an ice shot from your bow.

Your ice shot would convert 30 damage to cold. Conversions are additive, but only with the same conversions, so lets say Avatar of Fire was Avatar of Ice instead. If this were the case, you'd convert 30% + 50% = 80% of your damage to cold, for a total of 80 cold damage. Your final damage would be 80 cold damage (since you can't deal anything but cold in this hypothetical scenario).

So now lets treat Avatar of Fire actually as Avatar of Fire.

Ice shot converts 30 of your 100 damage to cold damage. Avatar of Fire will convert 50% of each of those to fire. So your final damage looks like 70/2 + 30/2 = 35 + 15 = 50 total fire damage. This makes sense because 50% of all of your damage should have been converted to fire and none of it was fire to begin with.

Lets say you use a 40% (level 1) cold to fire support gem on ice shot and deal 100 physical damage.

30 damage is converted to cold. 40% of that cold damage is converted to fire damage. Before AoF your 100 damage looks like: 70 physical / 18 cold / 12 fire.

Remember though, conversions of the same type are additive...so AoF will add it's 50% conversion to the 40% of cold to fire, for a total of 90%!

So with AoF, your damage now looks like 70*(.5) + 30*(.9) = 35 + 27 = 62 total fire damage. Using cold to fire increased your base fire damage by a little over 20% (50 fire damage became 62 fire damage).

On the surface, it appears you're taking a big damage hit because now you're dealing 62 damage instead of 100. However, the point of using AoF and conversions in general is to stack "increased" damage multipliers for different damage types. Since you converted physical, to cold, to fire...your damage is increased by all physical, cold, and fire "increased" multipliers.

With my build right now, I have 177% increased physical damage, 122% increased fire damage, and 70% increased cold damage. Using these same multipliers, the 62 damage you dealt becomes

62 * ( 1 + 177/100 + 122/100 + 70/100 ) = 62 * 4.69 = 290.78 total fire damage.

...and this happens because your damage is treated as physical, cold, and fire. By using cold to fire and AoF, you're basically taking your base physical damage dealt and tripling it as fire damage (with the above specific multipliers).

Now add in flammability, ignite, and burn duration...and you're talking some serious damage.

Sorry for the long ass explanation...but this passive requires a lot of math and thinking to get right...and I just wanted to clarify the passive for as many people as possible.

edit: my build for anyone wondering. It's an AoF glacial hammer duelist using glacial hammer + melee splash + cold to fire + weapon elemental damage + blood magic. I run hatred and anger. Very hardcore viable since I take lots of health nodes and stack armour.

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Vipermagi wrote:

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inDef wrote:

Let's say you do 100 physical damage with an ice shot from your bow.
[...]
Ice shot converts 30 of your 100 damage to cold damage. Avatar of Fire will convert 50% of each of those to fire. So your final damage looks like 70/2 + 30/2 = 35 + 15 = 50 total fire damage. This makes sense because 50% of all of your damage should have been converted to fire and none of it was fire to begin with.

That would be ridiculous. It would make it almost impossible to Convert 100% Phys to Elemental if you have multiple elements, and stacking multiple separate Conversions wouldn't actually get you anything. Luckily it doesn't actually do that so whatever.

100 * 0.3 = 30 Cold damage, 50% converted to Fire -> 30 * 0.5 = 15 Fire damage
100 * 0.5 = 50 Fire damage
50 + 15 = 65 Fire damage, AoF negates any remaining Cold and Phys damage.


If you Convert more than 100% Phys to Elemental, the Skill's Conversion will happen at full strength, and the rest is rescaled to fit the remaining bits. Source.

So what you're saying is that the fire damage is added off of each type of converted damage and then again off of the total original damage. I simply believe that is wrong. I've read all the same things you have and I don't see the proof of what you're saying.

If you could provide the line or paragraph that proves what you're saying I'll be more inclined to believe you. However, I've tested my damage in PvP and using the above math I've calculated my damage to the exact point... so I'm not sure how I could be wrong.

Is there any way to achieve 100% physical to fire damage without Blackgleam? If you could somehow get 100% phys to fire without being limited by quivers a AoF build would be insane.

I was thinking Chernobog's to bring you to 75% phys to fire, and then Hrimsorrow and cold to fire gem to convert the last 25% to fire. Does this work?

Not including the Goddess Scorned, as you can only use that weapon to deal damage.

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Musica wrote:

Is there any way to achieve 100% physical to fire damage without Blackgleam? If you could somehow get 100% phys to fire without being limited by quivers a AoF build would be insane.

I was thinking Chernobog's to bring you to 75% phys to fire, and then Hrimsorrow and cold to fire gem to convert the last 25% to fire. Does this work?

Not including the Goddess Scorned, as you can only use that weapon to deal damage.

That depends on what sort of weapon you want to use. If you want to use a bow then as far as I know you're gonna need Blackgleam to achieve a 100% conversion rate. For most melee weapons you can simply use IB as your attack skill and be done with it, which pretty much lets you run whatever equipment you want.