OP Legacy Uniques are the worst decision i've seen from the devs thus far

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iamstryker wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Or is it really just pure, raw jealousy?

I am truly shocked that someone who usually thinks things through so well would reduce down to this bad argument like everyone else defending OP legacies.

Am I the only one around here who cares about the balance and health of the game?? Is there not a reason the devs wanted these uniques to be nerfed and can I also not care about that reason?

I am truly insulted by the jealousy BS being flung around and I would seriously give away all of my gear and currency if it would make GGG change their minds on this issue. Thats how bad I think this is for the game.

First off, I'd really much rather you answer the other question. "In what capacity, then, are you competing with legacy item holders? Trading, perhaps? I honestly can't think of any other Path of Exile activity in which the fact that someone else has legacy Kaom's (or anything else of a similar nature) would actually impact your play experience."

Second, there is a difference between trying to create a balanced environment available to the players, and forcing one down their throats. You, iamstryker — you will have your balance, and to the extent it is not provided to you, you have a legitimate right to complain. You have a right to have that balance to carry over to PvP modes — to include the ladder system and trading, which are not duels but nevertheless pit you against human opponents — and thus I agree there are problems. But what does Joe Nobody's OP gear do to you? How does it negatively impact your play experience?

I do get that it isn't jealousy, and to the extent one can apologize for a simple misunderstanding, I apologize. No, what you believe in is indoctrination. You honestly believe that, by ripping away someone's legacy Kaom's and forcing them to use the new one instead, they will have a better play experience. You aim to convert people.

I can agree on one thing: they probably will have a better play experience if they do. Balanced play is good play, and thus, to a certain extent, indoctrination is a good thing. The difference is that I don't believe in ripping and forcing. Don't you believe that things are better when players choose to do something, not by being forced and pigeon-holed, but by their own free will, by choice? Is there even truly such a thing as an unwilling convert? (Perhaps one beaten into submission...)

We could come up with mechanics which encourage players to drop the legacy unique habit, without forcing them; fortunately, I already thought of two of them, assuming they're good enough for use.

And even if our attempts to convince them are unsuccessful... how does that hurt you? You have access to balanced play; you're good. If someone else insists on playing an inferior game, so be it. Apparently, they're having fun, it makes them happy. Isn't the point of playing games to fucking have fun and be happy?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Or is it really just pure, raw jealousy?

I am truly shocked that someone who usually thinks things through so well would reduce down to this bad argument like everyone else defending OP legacies.

Am I the only one around here who cares about the balance and health of the game?? Is there not a reason the devs wanted these uniques to be nerfed and can I also not care about that reason?

I am truly insulted by the jealousy BS being flung around and I would seriously give away all of my gear and currency if it would make GGG change their minds on this issue. Thats how bad I think this is for the game.

First off, I'd really much rather you answer the other question. "In what capacity, then, are you competing with legacy item holders? Trading, perhaps? I honestly can't think of any other Path of Exile activity in which the fact that someone else has legacy Kaom's (or anything else of a similar nature) would actually impact your play experience."

Second, there is a difference between trying to create a balanced environment available to the players, and forcing one down their throats. You, iamstryker — you will have your balance, and to the extent it is not provided to you, you have a legitimate right to complain. You have a right to have that balance to carry over to PvP modes — to include the ladder system and trading, which are not duels but nevertheless pit you against human opponents — and thus I agree there are problems. But what does Joe Nobody's OP gear do to you? How does it negatively impact your play experience?

I do get that it isn't jealousy, and to the extent one can apologize for a simple misunderstanding, I apologize. No, what you believe in is indoctrination. You honestly believe that, by ripping away someone's legacy Kaom's and forcing them to use the new one instead, they will have a better play experience. You aim to convert people.

I can agree on one thing: they actually probably will have a better play experience if they do. Balanced play is good play, and thus, to a certain extent, indoctrination is a good thing. The difference is that I don't believe in ripping and forcing. Don't you believe that things are better when players choose to do something, not by being forced and pigeon-holed, but by their own free will, by choice? Is there even truly such a thing as an unwilling convert?

Perhaps we could come up with mechanics which encourage players to drop the legacy unique habit; fortunately, I already thought of two of them, assuming they're good enough for use.

And even if our attempts to convince them are unsuccessful... how does that hurt you? You have access to balanced play; you're good. If someone else insists on playing an inferior game, so be it. Apparently, they're having fun, it makes them happy. Isn't the point of playing games to fucking have fun and be happy?

I am pro-legacy and I will now argue for why it does affect everyone in the standard and hardcore servers:

In any given economy, people have an amount of wealth, which decides what purchase power (not using the strict economic theory definition here) they have. Any major nerf/buff will cause a redistribution of wealth which affects the purchase power of every player. A good comparison is to compare to what happens when someone simply decides to burn a 100-dollar bill.

Now, if this was a single player game, that wouldn't matter, but this is a game that GGG has clearly shown revolves around trading and partying, so it matters.

However, just because it affects everyone, it doesn't mean that GGG shouldn't do it. They want and should first and foremost create a game they want to play and I am happy for that.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/546071

A petition has been made, please vote!

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Second, there is a difference between trying to create a balanced environment available to the players, and forcing one down their throats.

Lack of offline mode, forced patching, nerfs to passive nodes et al. are exactly the same, holy crap. Is this a bad logical fallacy day? People should be entitled to GGG's past balancing mistakes? It's cool if all animals are equal but pigs should be more equal?

I'm impressed by the lack of consistency in your stance and the fact that you neatly ignore any other form of "indoctrination" that has happened in the game forced by the developers' hands (read: every goddamn balance patch), but somehow chastise one of the few persons that actually care about PoE being better than the next ARPG and GGG to have more integrity than the next ARPG developer. Shame on you.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

First off, I'd really much rather you answer the other question. "In what capacity, then, are you competing with legacy item holders? Trading, perhaps? I honestly can't think of any other Path of Exile activity in which the fact that someone else has legacy Kaom's (or anything else of a similar nature) would actually impact your play experience."

Is straight up competition really the only reason someone must care about balance? Would you be shocked if I told you that I also enjoy balance in offline games? Why don't you answer my question about why the devs wanted to nerf those items in the first place? Is it because OP uniques is against the design philosophy? Do the devs not want all players going after the same items? Are the devs only thinking about competition here or what?

I was against OP uniques from the very start and some items were worse offenders than others. I'll use rainbowstrides as an example. It really annoys me how overused these boots are, and I will admit right now that I have 3 pair of them and will probably use all 3. Why would I do that? Because their friggin ridiculous. It would be stupid for me to ignore them because they are IN THE GAME. They are an easy way out when choosing boots. GGG can nerf them to the ground and I won't cry because I think the game would be better off that way. Its not that I am bothered by other people having them, I am bothered that they exist at all (in their current form).

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Second, there is a difference between trying to create a balanced environment available to the players, and forcing one down their throats. You, iamstryker — you will have your balance, and to the extent it is not provided to you, you have a legitimate right to complain. You have a right to have that balance to carry over to PvP modes — to include the ladder system and trading, which are not duels but nevertheless pit you against human opponents — and thus I agree there are problems. But what does Joe Nobody's OP gear do to you? How does it negatively impact your play experience?

You can't very well ask people to turn in a mistake that they enjoy. But I have also already posted that I would rather the devs leave those uniques alone than make them legacy.

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I can agree on one thing: they probably will have a better play experience if they do. Balanced play is good play, and thus, to a certain extent, indoctrination is a good thing. The difference is that I don't believe in ripping and forcing. Don't you believe that things are better when players choose to do something, not by being forced and pigeon-holed, but by their own free will, by choice? Is there even truly such a thing as an unwilling convert?

There's really no other option. The devs have been ripping and forcing the game into what they want for a long time now, stopping short of fixing their mistakes in regards to these uniques is inconsistent and also counterproductive. It offends me as a fan of their game that they are going to be improving the 4 month leagues by updating these uniques but in standard they are making these OP uniques even more important. I'll just have to learn to live with it, the only league I care about is the one the devs care about the least.

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And even if our attempts to convince them are unsuccessful... how does that hurt you? You have access to balanced play; you're good. If someone else insists on playing an inferior game, so be it. Apparently, they're having fun, it makes them happy. Isn't the point of playing games to fucking have fun and be happy?

The game itself is not the same. Its not the same that I turn on trade chat and see people spamming legacy uniques for 500 exalts. Thats broken.

Standard has never simply been a playground to do whatever you want. I have argued with people a lot about full respecs and death penalties, and I did that because I cared about the balance of standard. However by leaving in uniques that the devs admit are mistakes how can I make those arguments with a straight face? If people want to support OP legacy uniques then why don't all of you just let EVERYONE play how they want. Full respecs and no death penalties if you choose. Standard is just a dumpster legacy league anyway. Who gives a shit.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

And even if our attempts to convince them are unsuccessful... how does that hurt you? You have access to balanced play; you're good. If someone else insists on playing an inferior game, so be it. Apparently, they're having fun, it makes them happy. Isn't the point of playing games to fucking have fun and be happy?

You misunderstand, I personally don't care enough even about my stash, let alone someone else's, wouldn't care much even if they went back on their word and wiped everything.

But I do care about the game, and this decision is a lousy practice in general and bad for the game all around. The things that have the most effect in the long run are exactly the small things like this one that thug at your strings and distract you from task at hand.

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iamstryker wrote:

If people want to support OP legacy uniques then why don't all of you just let EVERYONE play how they want. Full respecs and no death penalties if you choose. Standard is just a dumpster legacy league anyway. Who gives a shit.

Because a full respec isn't something you've earned (unless you have 100 Regrets lying around, in which case you have earned it, and you can spend them if you choose), and a scott-free death isn't something you've earned. Have you noticed that, when they do give you a passive respec because of big changes to the passive tree, that you keep your level? They don't take your level away, because you've earned that. Also, an important point I just brushed on: they do give you free full respecs when they change around the tree and thus potentially change how you would allocate your passives.

In short: Earned? Legacy. Unearned? Just plain nerf it.

When it comes to skill gem adjustments, the idea of a "legacy Cleave" is something which, until very recently, I'd never seen or thought of. But I actually really like the idea! It is, after all, an item. It's probably far too late to do anything about it for 1.0, but in the future I'd like to see legacy gems instead of retroactive changes.

The pro-legacy side needs to man up, because pretty much all personal attacks comes from their end. The only one making an attempt to argue for Legacy items in a proper manner is Scrotie.

GGG has announced meta changes a million times, yet 1 case wants the special treatment. You took the risk, you had the reward during open beta, but now you need even more during release? Creating items so valuable they probably impact even the new leagues. If you word it like this it aint look pretty, but it does seem to come down to it:

I made this comment before: There are a lot of more gaming hours and farm being trivialized because these uniques form the minority. 5 guys with 1000-h played but no Kaom lose economic power against 1 guy with 1000h that did have the Kaom drop. There is the economic value, but also the play value that becomes exclusive to them.

I said this and than some posh American came into the thread and calls me a dirty communist, but the fact is they are behaving like the communists. In a game where suddenly builds are no longer viable and pieces of gear no longer work out you can't expect items to be risk free of these meta changes. Lets face it, people here want risk free reward for their work. There are numerous solutions where property is kept but it simply would lose value, but the property is not lost and the value is increased. Ideally the value stays the same, but the next best thing is if it loses value.

The natural thing here is for items to lose value, what GGG is doing with legacy items is introducing gold into the game. Perhaps we need in game money, that buys orbs and items from vendors, because that money won;t change and having items change and fluctuate w.r.t. these credits is a normal thing. Than suddenly someone stock piling on kaoms due to a patch rumor could lose it and people would say: should have kept your gold/ currency. I think in a game where the aim was to have no currency, there is also no right of legacy items.

How does this not sound like the failure of capitalism or the bank crisis? Hey we got all these great mortgages (exalts) and have been living like kings (p;laying kaoms build) in our banks, but guess what they are shoddy products (meta change) and now we are in a crisis.

Please general population be so kind and pay for the risk we have taken (safe the bank). Let our crisis become your crisis and with all the money printing (make more exalts) in a few years you all still will be in a crisis, but we will look better by the year.

Lets artificially raise prices on Gold as is the communist way as is the way of the legacy items.

I have yet to see really good arguments why Legacy items are a good idea. The only one where work should reward is true, but only true if everyone's works is rewarding. The pro argument is the argument of: any game reward should be risk free, in that case please cancel the patch because than character work should also be risk free too and cleave should remain unchanged.

There really should be a legacy league, where characters and items can transfer to where these items and perhaps even old trees can be used, but this sounds like too much work for GGG. Yet putting legacy items in their own league seems the only real fair option. This would be the make everything including skill gems legacy work for Scrotie, but you can't dump 4 month characters into these legacy leagues, not without angering people who got attached to these characters.

(I am not too fuzzed about it, because I don't trade a lot and could be called mostly self found. I do love this discussion though :D it is interesting but currently I see a lot more sense being made from the anti legacy camp. Oh and I rerolled a few of my legacy items with divines yesterday, sorry :D (though my facebreakers went from 824 to 837 to 840, Y u troll me so much GGG o.0 ???)

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moozooh wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Second, there is a difference between trying to create a balanced environment available to the players, and forcing one down their throats.

Lack of offline mode, forced patching, nerfs to passive nodes et al. are exactly the same, holy crap. Is this a bad logical fallacy day? People should be entitled to GGG's past balancing mistakes? It's cool if all animals are equal but pigs should be more equal?

I'm impressed by the lack of consistency in your stance and the fact that you neatly ignore any other form of "indoctrination" that has happened in the game forced by the developers' hands (read: every goddamn balance patch), but somehow chastise one of the few persons that actually care about PoE being better than the next ARPG and GGG to have more integrity than the next ARPG developer. Shame on you.

Amazing post. Infinite respect for Orwell ups.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

If people want to support OP legacy uniques then why don't all of you just let EVERYONE play how they want. Full respecs and no death penalties if you choose. Standard is just a dumpster legacy league anyway. Who gives a shit.

Because a full respec isn't something you've earned (unless you have 100 Regrets lying around, in which case you have earned it, and you can spend them if you choose), and a scott-free death isn't something you've earned. Have you noticed that, when they do give you a passive respec because of big changes to the passive tree, that you keep your level? They don't take your level away, because you've earned that. Also, an important point I just brushed on: they do give you free full respecs when they change around the tree and thus potentially change how you would allocate your passives.

In short: Earned? Legacy. Unearned? Just plain nerf it.

When it comes to skill gem adjustments, the idea of a "legacy Cleave" is something which, until very recently, I'd never seen or thought of. But I actually really like the idea! It is, after all, an item. It's probably far too late to do anything about it for 1.0, but in the future I'd like to see legacy gems instead of retroactive changes.

In my opinion no body has earned the right to keep something that the devs have deemed a mistake. They have a right to the fixed version just like everything else in the game that is fixed. But certainly not mistakes.