Auction house Yes/No?

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Spysong192 wrote:

What are the differences between AH (like wow/d3) and forum based selling since most users that are active in the forum trade are using 3rd party sites that are indeed providing search mechanism and are working like a AH.

Just a question.

under non-buyout conditions, low and mid-grade items are a pain to trade. because of the opportunity cost (wiki it) of trading, these items are rarely bought or sold, and trading is reserved for commodities (like currency) and high-grade items. this doesn't hurt anyone too much because low/mid-grade items aren't too difficult to farm.

when you introduce a buyout system like d3 had, buying and selling becomes effortless. this means very few items are unsellable -- the only question is how low should the price go (these items sell mostly for convenience factor). since low/mid items are far more common than high items, it quickly becomes a situation where the majority of one's income comes not from big finds, but from the savvy sale of many, many small finds. this quickly transforms farming from exhilarating highs and lows to a tedium of multiple listings

since medium-grade items are now plentiful on the market, some previously high-grade items are now worth much less, since you can get almost-as-good very cheap. this huge difference in functional supply causes prices of items to plummet and everyone to quickly become very well geared. as weeks go by the standard for mediocre goes up and up, until only the most uber items are worth anything at all

since everyone still actively playing is loaded with currency from the sale of mediocre items, they are swarming in currency and still looking for upgrades. as the mediocrity breakpoint approaches perfection, this causes a huge supply/demand differential, leading to skyrocketing prices for the items people actually want to trade for

the end result is an ever-worsening disparity between the price of previously good items and the price of great items, with an economy where the only real participants are those who have been heavily active since the beginning since they are able to cash in before the mediocrity breakpoint gets too close to perfection. this shuts out new players and casuals (those who play only a couple hours a week)

note, however, that this effect is caused by instant-speed buyouts, not auctions. proper auctions take far too much time for buyers to get convenience value for their currency, and any form of auction limit prevents sellers from achieving the volume necessary to allow their mediocre items to earn an auction slot. real money auctions are still bad, but it has nothing to with the mediocre item problem; very few would want to spend real money for convenience that might only last a few hours. instead rmt is bad because it makes botting viable as a business plan.

currency auctions -- not buyouts, true auctions -- actually wouldn't hurt the game much if at all. this is especially true if auctions are allowed to run indefinitely, since it eliminates the practice of auction sniping and (assuming some form of auction limit) could mean increasing the time on the sale of an epic item means more profit than listing an inferior item

however, non-real-money buyouts are the force that destroyed diablo 3. the truth is that making mediocre items anything but worthless destroys an arpg loot system (sorry, trade chat d3-convert spammers), and must be prevented from entering poe at all costs. therefore, burn it with fire

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PlaceholderText wrote:

Spoiler

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Spysong192 wrote:

What are the differences between AH (like wow/d3) and forum based selling since most users that are active in the forum trade are using 3rd party sites that are indeed providing search mechanism and are working like a AH.

Just a question.

under non-buyout conditions, low and mid-grade items are a pain to trade. because of the opportunity cost (wiki it) of trading, these items are rarely bought or sold, and trading is reserved for commodities (like currency) and high-grade items. this doesn't hurt anyone too much because low/mid-grade items aren't too difficult to farm.

when you introduce a buyout system like d3 had, buying and selling becomes effortless. this means very few items are unsellable -- the only question is how low should the price go (these items sell mostly for convenience factor). since low/mid items are far more common than high items, it quickly becomes a situation where the majority of one's income comes not from big finds, but from the savvy sale of many, many small finds. this quickly transforms farming from exhilarating highs and lows to a tedium of multiple listings

since medium-grade items are now plentiful on the market, some previously high-grade items are now worth much less, since you can get almost-as-good very cheap. this huge difference in functional supply causes prices of items to plummet and everyone to quickly become very well geared. as weeks go by the standard for mediocre goes up and up, until only the most uber items are worth anything at all

since everyone still actively playing is loaded with currency from the sale of mediocre items, they are swarming in currency and still looking for upgrades. as the mediocrity breakpoint approaches perfection, this causes a huge supply/demand differential, leading to skyrocketing prices for the items people actually want to trade for

the end result is an ever-worsening disparity between the price of previously good items and the price of great items, with an economy where the only real participants are those who have been heavily active since the beginning since they are able to cash in before the mediocrity breakpoint gets too close to perfection. this shuts out new players and casuals (those who play only a couple hours a week)

note, however, that this effect is caused by instant-speed buyouts, not auctions. proper auctions take far too much time for buyers to get convenience value for their currency, and any form of auction limit prevents sellers from achieving the volume necessary to allow their mediocre items to earn an auction slot. real money auctions are still bad, but it has nothing to with the mediocre item problem; very few would want to spend real money for convenience that might only last a few hours. instead rmt is bad because it makes botting viable as a business plan.

currency auctions -- not buyouts, true auctions -- actually wouldn't hurt the game much if at all. this is especially true if auctions are allowed to run indefinitely, since it eliminates the practice of auction sniping and (assuming some form of auction limit) could mean increasing the time on the sale of an epic item means more profit than listing an inferior item

however, non-real-money buyouts are the force that destroyed diablo 3 and must be prevented from entering poe at all costs. therefore, burn it with fire

Thanks for that quality post. In my eyes it describes the economy of how the game would go with a buyout ah model perfectly.

But how do one explain that to the voices that are demanding a buyout Ah model "at all costs" with the threat " we are potential customers! better not send us away!"

That´s the test

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Spysong192 wrote:

Thanks for that quality post. In my eyes it describes the economy of how the game would go with a buyout ah model perfectly.

But how do one explain that to the voices that are demanding a buyout Ah model "at all costs" with the threat " we are potential customers! better not send us away!"

That´s the test

you don't. you just tell them to fuck off, or better yet ignore them. this is to be a meritocracy, not the "democracy" of a lynch mob

and yes, it is a test. the proper response to reason is reason, the proper response to coercion is defiance, and it is a moral test to respond correctly

with automated trading the market becomes flooded with items and you quickly get to the point where nothing you find is worth anything. You will have people with multiple computers each running multiple games with bots just farming and listing stuff all day long and these people don't even need to be awake, is what you find in 3 hours of grinding going to be better than what 10,000s of bots running 24/7 are going to find? If not then you wont be able to sell shit, wont be able to find anything close to the items you can buy on the AH for pennies. Meanwhile the extreme endgame items will go from being worth 20 exalts to being worth 150 exalts now that you have AH bot tycoons everywhere who can afford such things and through flipping can buy and sell items at such rates regularly, making 40+ exalt markups on items.

Right now the bots and tycoons are crippled by the need for the guy to actually be online and make the trades in person, they can still stack wealth, but not to the same extremes.

You have 3 ways to get loot. Find it, craft it, trade for it. Finding it is at the core of an arpg, its a fundamental drive through the whole thing. Crafting is a fun side game, it's an extra dimension to things. Trading is the least 'fun', least 'game' option of the 3, we are not here for the trading game. It can be fun to get stuff through trade, dont get me wrong, but the act of trading, be it automated or not is not as fun as crafting or playing the game and finding loot. If you care about the game you have to appreciate theres a balance between how easy it is to get good gear from each source, if you make one easier you weaken the others. Thats why crafting has to be hard, it can't be allowed to eclipse finding gear, and trading needs serious obstacles to allow grinding and crafting to have any meaning.

No and it would be nice if most of sellers would stop to act like if its some kind of auction house by shouting the c/o. You take it or not.

Look, I think what everyone's missing is the fact that AH/RMAH is clearly the best thing for POE. Not implementing it would push this game the way of a certain trilogy's second iteration, which is obviously something no player of POE wants.

yes,

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BlazingNova wrote:

No and it would be nice if most of sellers would stop to act like if its some kind of auction house by shouting the c/o. You take it or not.

That's kind of a stupid thing to say. If the item has a c/o it means it is a true auction. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It is really useful when you have no idea what something is worth as well. Kind of hard for people to lowball you that way. Big difference between someone auctioning off a item the way you are talking about and throwing it on a AH and forgetting about it.

honestly at this point does it really matter?

theres like 5 sites that are 100% workable as POE auction houses - the only thing that limits them, is how many people actually use the sites.
the devs say they don't want one - so the players just made them....
its weird.

personally, I feel a AH would 100% trivialize gear, and playing, and make it so items were 1000 exalts, and good gear would be worthless and all the usual damage that comes with a AH.
its the absolute worst thing that can happen to this game in my opinion and I dread the idea of seeing people stop playing, in favor of quick insta charactors and less playing and such.

but I also see.... I am in the minority on this.

I think it should be a bid system and when the owner accepts the offer ->item is sent, at the moment i use poe xyz and it's very hard some times to get someone online and get the item that you wanted so i really really want any kind of system, when you get at high level you have pretty much everything you wanted so it doesn't have a impact on high end content due to the difficulty scaling