Do all the XP penalty complainers just body brigade through the game? Honest question

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

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Rivance#3976 wrote:

If I have to spend all my time doing easy content that has no real risk of killing me I’m not playing the challenging game we were promised.

Why don't you challenge yourself to do harder content without dying ?

If I can do it without dying, how hard is it really? It might be a gear check, but it isn’t a mechanical skill check. Can you honestly not see that “without dying” by its very nature means “without much difficulty” or are you lost in the honeymoon sauce and honestly think blasting down bosses before they can do half their mechanics is difficult?

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Rivance#3976 wrote:

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

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Rivance#3976 wrote:

If I have to spend all my time doing easy content that has no real risk of killing me I’m not playing the challenging game we were promised.

Why don't you challenge yourself to do harder content without dying ?

If I can do it without dying, how hard is it really? It might be a gear check, but it isn’t a mechanical skill check. Can you honestly not see that “without dying” by its very nature means “without much difficulty” or are you lost in the honeymoon sauce and honestly think blasting down bosses before they can do half their mechanics is difficult?

Then just do it and death penalty isn't an issue anymore.

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Nyon#6673 wrote:

1. Just so you dont misunderstand me I 100% agree, Mire is by far the worst map ever made. I also have a character who uses frost wall so I understand completetly.

2. You deffinetly can choose to not do mire. And even if you do run mire every mechanic you would die to is still 100% avoidable.

3. I dont disagree that there are maps, on death effects, and other mechanics that at the moment are terrible and leads to bad deaths. But your kinda taking my argument out of context. The point isnt if you would do mire or choose to skip it. If you were one of the few who had spent hundreds of hours trying to reach level 100 and you knew if you die you lose tens of hours of progress and you knew that mire is a map that you are much much more likely to die in, you would skip it.

I think you missed where I said sometimes there are choke points where I CAN'T "skip" the map. There are "end of continent" paths where there's only one road to the next continent on the atlas that runs through Mire. Now I'm faced with a choice. Reset the ENTIRE atlas or push through. If I have to reset my entire atlas, I'm just gonna log off for good.

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"someone” wrote:

Then just do it and death penalty isn't an issue anymore.

You stand in your hideout. There are two portals. One leads to a boss that you have a nearly 100% chance of defeating on your first attempt, because if you don’t it was a mistake to walk through that portal in the first place. The second portal leads to a harder boss. You get six attempts. After dying three times you really dial in, you’ve got this, you’re all warmed up.”

I want to fight the second, harder boss.

I’m kind of in the wrong thread. I have no issue with xp loss on death. I have an issue with “pinnacle” content being single attempt only considering how high the opportunity cost of walking through that portal is.

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SwabbieGaming#5830 wrote:

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Nyon#6673 wrote:

1. Just so you dont misunderstand me I 100% agree, Mire is by far the worst map ever made. I also have a character who uses frost wall so I understand completetly.

2. You deffinetly can choose to not do mire. And even if you do run mire every mechanic you would die to is still 100% avoidable.

3. I dont disagree that there are maps, on death effects, and other mechanics that at the moment are terrible and leads to bad deaths. But your kinda taking my argument out of context. The point isnt if you would do mire or choose to skip it. If you were one of the few who had spent hundreds of hours trying to reach level 100 and you knew if you die you lose tens of hours of progress and you knew that mire is a map that you are much much more likely to die in, you would skip it.

I think you missed where I said sometimes there are choke points where I CAN'T "skip" the map. There are "end of continent" paths where there's only one road to the next continent on the atlas that runs through Mire. Now I'm faced with a choice. Reset the ENTIRE atlas or push through. If I have to reset my entire atlas, I'm just gonna log off for good.

Theres litterally 90 different paths you can take. Ofc you can skip it, dont be ridicilous. And ofc I understand that you would want to do it if youve been pathing a specific way to reach something but that is besides my point.

If you were grinding for level 100 and had spent hundreds of hours, and you knew mire was a bad map that you would die to, then you would skip it.

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Nyon#6673 wrote:

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adrenrocker#5143 wrote:

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Nyon#6673 wrote:

I think your just under a misconception.

If you have a decent build that can clear top end content then every single one shot is avoidable. And to be clear im not defending on death effects, there is far too many of them and they are incredibly annoying especially in combination with other mechanics (phasing, etc). But im mapping top end maps all day and there isnt a single thing that kills me that I cant avoid.

The reason exp penalty is in the game is to discourage glass cannon builds and secondly so that reaching level 100 is a challenge and not just a time investment. You can have the opinion that its not fun and that it would be better without, thats fine, but those are still valid reasons that alot of us enjoy. In the end I think its very unlikely that ggg removes them since they didnt in poe1 and alot of people enjoy poe2 and defend the mechanics.
Best case scenario is that they tune it down abit.

I mean this sincerely, if your build is that good, you never get one shot, and are still doing high level content then start streaming. You are better than like 2/3rds of folks on twitch. At least. Admittedly anecdotal, but that just does not seem to be the common experience.

And that is exactly my point! You didn't say you liked it, you didn't say that it does something in a more enjoyable way, just that it stops glass cannon builds and makes reaching 100 "Not a time investment". It doesn't do the latter, at best it makes the time investment longer or makes the time investment a less fun experience. I am sorry if it takes this long to get to 100 even if you play it "right", then it being a time investment is the big challenge. As to the former, as discussed, there are plenty of alternate penalties that do the same thing. If you can open the game up so more people enjoy it without decreasing the difficulty or allowing those builds, why wouldn't you? XP loss offers nothing that other, better penalties don't also offer.


I don't expect it to change, but that doesn't stop me from giving feedback all over forums in the hopes GGG does change. I like this game and hope it becomes the most successful version of itself it can be and goes on for a long time.

1. Its not so much that I cant get one shot, its more that the things that can one shot me are avoidable so it rarely happends. And sure its probably true that its a minority of the playerbase that have characters that are that strong, but also to be fair my character isnt that ridicilously strong, the character Im currently playing I litterally made 4 days ago.
But I think the point is that if your not at that level where your character can survive the most basic attacks then leveling to 100 shouldnt be your priority. You should be focusing on getting your defenses up, and your not missing out on much by being lvl 90 instead of 100 f.ex.
And if people wanna make feedback that there are too many unforgiving mechanics while gearing up, thats fair, but it by itself isnt relatable to exp penalty being removed. They should fix the mechanics that are overtuned/not working.

2. Weither I personally enjoy it or not isnt relevant, but there deffinetly are people who enjoy grinding to 100 and it being a challenge, and there is a substantial difference if you reach level 100 by default just as long as you play long enough and if you actually have to have a good build and avoid mechanics so you dont die. You could make the same argument that removing permanent death in hardcore wouldnt deminish the challenge of reaching level 100 because its still a huge time investment, which it is but it drasticly reduces the challenge and there are those who enjoy that. And even if I didnt like it (which I do) then if it makes a almost non existant difference to my character weither im 93 or 100 then why not have it for those that enjoy it?

1. I mean, XP loss is arguably an overtuned/not working mechanic. And going down levels so you can focus on defense is were the issue appears. If RNG is bad, you aren't getting gear to up your defense or change your build, and since at lower levels xp takes longer you then end up in the "I made a mistake and lost hours of progress issue." It quickly becomes not being skillful, but being mistake free. The "whoops my build/gear is bad" often happens suddenly, and the game should encourage you to fight/figure your way out of it, not spend time elsewhere. And sure, they could alter every other end game mechanic and mod to make it less sucky, or they could replace xp loss. (No, its not every but its a majority). Personal opinion, but I think most of the ridiculous stuff would be fine with a different penalty. It's POE, I expect Stupid on death mechanics or "WTF was that" moments.

Part of my personal disconnect, I think, is that the goal of "minimal death" that is that extreme makes the game feel less challenging. I expect a difficult challenging game to murder me a lot. Playing so safe and that not happening just compounds the "why am I wasting my time with this" feeling.

2. I mean, the whole point of Hardcore is to be as dickish as possible. This discussion wouldn't happen if there was Softcore, normal, and hardcore. But I have also seen people say that an easier setting would devalue the achievement of them hitting 100 in Normal, so maybe the argument would just be that gatekeeping one instead. (Not saying you are arguing for gate keeping, to be clear, though a lot of defenders pretty clearly are.)

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adrenrocker#5143 wrote:

1. I mean, XP loss is arguably an overtuned/not working mechanic. And going down levels so you can focus on defense is were the issue appears. If RNG is bad, you aren't getting gear to up your defense or change your build, and since at lower levels xp takes longer you then end up in the "I made a mistake and lost hours of progress issue." It quickly becomes not being skillful, but being mistake free. The "whoops my build/gear is bad" often happens suddenly, and the game should encourage you to fight/figure your way out of it, not spend time elsewhere. And sure, they could alter every other end game mechanic and mod to make it less sucky, or they could replace xp loss. (No, its not every but its a majority). Personal opinion, but I think most of the ridiculous stuff would be fine with a different penalty. It's POE, I expect Stupid on death mechanics or "WTF was that" moments.

Part of my personal disconnect, I think, is that the goal of "minimal death" that is that extreme makes the game feel less challenging. I expect a difficult challenging game to murder me a lot. Playing so safe and that not happening just compounds the "why am I wasting my time with this" feeling.

2. I mean, the whole point of Hardcore is to be as dickish as possible. This discussion wouldn't happen if there was Softcore, normal, and hardcore. But I have also seen people say that an easier setting would devalue the achievement of them hitting 100 in Normal, so maybe the argument would just be that gatekeeping one instead. (Not saying you are arguing for gate keeping, to be clear, though a lot of defenders pretty clearly are.)

1. Yes that could arguably be the case, my stance is that the vast majority of arguments against the xp penalty is referring to other mechanics that arent working / are overtuned. So I just think the best path would be to fix those mechanics first and then see if as many people have a problem with the xp penalty. Secondly unless your playing ssf I dont really think gearing is that big of an issue, you get alot of exalts, especially if you use the currency exchange for things you dont need an make a trade tab for rares that are "decent" that you wouldnt use, you can buy gear that gives you res cap + a decent es pool for not that high investment. Farming it is time consuming ofc but I think thats intentional.

And Im not against any form reduction in challenges in the cases where I think its a good change. My ideal changes for the next patch (outside of obvious things like getting a crafting system) would be for them to actually tune down mapping, remove alot of on death mechanics so I dont have to religiously pay attention 100% of the time while im mapping, and instead nerf the mechanics that let you one shot bosses and make some of the bosses even more challenging.

Ideally I think mapping should be alot more casual so you can chill and farm gear and bosses should be a real challenge, I just dont think removing the xp penalty achieves anything other then making hitting 100 trivial, because there are other mechanics in the game (losing map, etc) that alredy would make you get mad for dying to "bad mechanics". So if they instead focus on fixing mechanics like on death effects and maybe some changes to make gearing easier (replacable runes, f.ex) and then instead buff bosses and nerf some top builds. When its more polished the xp penalty isnt really a problem because your character peaks at 90, and if the xp penalty is preventing you from reaching 90 then your just playing the game wrong.

I love it when fanboys try to demean the people with good suggestions.

/s

Bottom line: It's a PVE game. If people want to set a goal to get to 100 it should be achievable so they can fully realize their build. It has nothing to do with anyone else, it doesn't impact anyone else. Why would that be a problem?

If you want "tension" or some kind of penalty for dying then play hardcore. That's what it's there for. People should have the option NOT to have to deal with exp penalties.

It's lost time and at some point in every build, for every player out there they will get to the point where they die once and feel it's not worth spending X number of hours trying to get back to that point again.

That's not fun.

That's frustration.

Honest answer, nope.

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Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:

I love it when fanboys try to demean the people with good suggestions.

/s

Bottom line: It's a PVE game. If people want to set a goal to get to 100 it should be achievable so they can fully realize their build. It has nothing to do with anyone else, it doesn't impact anyone else. Why would that be a problem?

If you want "tension" or some kind of penalty for dying then play hardcore. That's what it's there for. People should have the option NOT to have to deal with exp penalties.

It's lost time and at some point in every build, for every player out there they will get to the point where they die once and feel it's not worth spending X number of hours trying to get back to that point again.

That's not fun.

That's frustration.

1. You can set a goal to reach level 100, it is achievable since its been achieved by several others. Please be accurate if your gonna give feedback.

2. It does impact everyones else who enjoys hitting level 100 being a challenge. Currently you have to actually make a good build that doesnt insta die to everything and play for a long time to reach level 100. If you remove xp penalty then you just reach it by default as long as you play long enough.
You can think its stupid, you can think its unfun, but that doesnt change the fact that there are others who enjoy it currently. Again try to be more accurate.

I would argue that not removing it impacts less people then removing it does.
Xp penalty just isnt a issue, if you think it is then you dont understand the game.

A) If xp penalty is preventing you from reaching level 90 then the problem isnt the xp penalty, its the fact that your doing something wrong and dying litterally 24/7. Reaching level 90 is basicly free.

B) After youve reached level 90 your character has basicly peaked, which is why almost every build guide you see is made for lvl 90 characters. The extra 10 levels are trivial and are only there for people who really want to min max the last juice out of their characters. And this doesnt apply to 99% of the people who are complaining about xp penalty. And reaching that last 1% character power of hitting level 100 should be a challenge. If you remove xp penalty the only challenge is X amount of time played.