Do all the XP penalty complainers just body brigade through the game? Honest question

A lot of this is gear dependent.

I died once from 90 to 91.5 because I got better gear. But when you don't have that, losing exp to content you gain experience through can be frustrating. I don't think it's really about intentionally playing in a risky way - if you're not getting exp or decent drops, you're not going to enjoy stuff for too long.

I personally think lower level maps should drop slightly more exalt orbs. At least let people gamble more if they feel stuck.

Oh cool, I thought most deaths were about off screen mobs shooting lasers and BS all around. Thanks to you, I know it is just me. I gotta git gud avoiding BS that is not even on the screen to avoid losing like 40 maps worth of XP.

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PhillipBurns#5461 wrote:

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alhazred70#2994 wrote:

My thoughts,

Dying involves ;

- lost waystone
- lost content
- lost currency
- lost exp
- lost time investment


Dying gains ;

- potential knowledge of why you failed
- potential to improve character

I strongly feel they have to balance the death penalties as a whole.

Factor in the large amount of visual clutter or visual soup being thrown at you, especially in parties or group play, causing random "one-shots" and ground effects that you simply can't see or react to.

Factor in terrain issues, getting stuck in place, body blocked etc. etc.

Plenty of evidence of the above factors happening, no need to argue about it.

No need to argue with me at all actually, this is just my two cents.

Considering how the waystones are more time investment than any content in the game, losing that is a big punishment.

Personally, I understand having an xp death penalty. I just think it needs an adjustment. +1% from 90-99. So 1-9% loss. Serves its purpose, just for the actual endgame instead of the midgame.

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ThreeBelowZero#2968 wrote:

Oh cool, I thought most deaths were about off screen mobs shooting lasers and BS all around. Thanks to you, I know it is just me. I gotta git gud avoiding BS that is not even on the screen to avoid losing like 40 maps worth of XP.

they fix most of the range last patch with a bunch of other nerf so it is alrdy way better, i haven't been it by a metor or random lighting for a while (it wont os me anyway :p)

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ThreeBelowZero#2968 wrote:

Oh cool, I thought most deaths were about off screen mobs shooting lasers and BS all around. Thanks to you, I know it is just me. I gotta git gud avoiding BS that is not even on the screen to avoid losing like 40 maps worth of XP.

Actually in this case no getting gud is needed. You just need to give feedback thats correct instead of blaming the XP penalty.

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Seikojin#1601 wrote:

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PhillipBurns#5461 wrote:

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alhazred70#2994 wrote:

My thoughts,

Dying involves ;

- lost waystone
- lost content
- lost currency
- lost exp
- lost time investment


Dying gains ;

- potential knowledge of why you failed
- potential to improve character

I strongly feel they have to balance the death penalties as a whole.

Factor in the large amount of visual clutter or visual soup being thrown at you, especially in parties or group play, causing random "one-shots" and ground effects that you simply can't see or react to.

Factor in terrain issues, getting stuck in place, body blocked etc. etc.

Plenty of evidence of the above factors happening, no need to argue about it.

No need to argue with me at all actually, this is just my two cents.

Considering how the waystones are more time investment than any content in the game, losing that is a big punishment.

Personally, I understand having an xp death penalty. I just think it needs an adjustment. +1% from 90-99. So 1-9% loss. Serves its purpose, just for the actual endgame instead of the midgame.

xp loss is 2.5% if you use the tool at your disposition. At lvl 90+ omens are cheap even in ssf they are not that hard to farm at all.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

Absolutely not what I am arguing for - I don't want zero risk, I don't care about the rewards I care about the gameplay, and I'm not 'upset'. Thinking that losing XP from previous successes is a bad feature isn't remotely the same as saying there should be zero risk. Lots of other things are at risk:

- Your time, even just that required to open a new map
- Your waystones
- Your precursor mods
- Map mechanics (Delirium etc)
- Loot on the floor

With current drop rates thats not punishment enough. With your suggestion GGG would have to severely nerf Waypoint sustain so that you would be extremely lucky to get to highest tier maps at all. That has already been a thing back when Atlas was first introduced and nobody liked being stuck on the same low tier maps for a long time.

Non sequitur. Your conclusion does not follow - the 2 axes of XP and Waystones are independent. If they balance drop rates so that someone who never dies is able to sustain without much/any Atlas investment then the Atlas nodes for waystones become options for people who fail occasionally to invest into more heavily, and someone who "dies all the time" will just not be able to sustain because they are too often dying before they can collect any waystones. Tweak as necessary. XP loss is mechanically unrelated.

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Watch the patch interview again. Jonathan points out the XP penalty system is there to discourage people from rushing into maps their builds cannot handle. Without that system you will immediatly rush to high tier maps to die repeatedly because you end up with more xp and loot anyway.

Firstly, that's not how he put it. He said something close to "it keeps you where you need to be" and then immediately said "but maybe that's not the right way to think about it". He then deferred to Mark who described it as "insult to injury" saying the different axes of punishment are currently excessive but that he definitely wants to keep the 1-portal system.

So, nice try but GGG aren't much help to you here, if anything they are saying the opposite of what you want. Jonathan does not think this is a clear cut thing, at least not any more. And Mark wants to reduce the punishments but not by allowing more portals.

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This already happened back in Path of Exile 1 Alpha when map system didn't even exist and endgame was a bunch of connected levels with doorways to next Tier. Every single player just immediatly rushed to the highest tier only to die repeatedly and then complain here how the game is too difficult. Nobody even thought of spending more time in lower tier areas first until their builds were ready for higher tier ones.

Complaining about difficulty when there are lower difficulties to choose is not a strong complaint. Just because some people did this and complained about it doesn't mean that's a valid complaint.

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You keep arguing that its not true with an excuse that penalty for dying is "not fun gameplay".

Firstly it's not an 'excuse' as I haven't done anything wrong. Reasonable people can disagree about video game mechanics. I'd appreciate it if you refrain from attempts to demonize me for disagreeing.

Secondly that's not exactly my argument - my argument isn't that the XP loss itself isn't fun gameplay - though you do see that complaint, based on the immediate frustration people feel when it happens.

My actual argument is that the presence of the XP loss leads to players only playing extremely easy no-risk content, and that being limited to easy no-risk content does not make for an exciting gameplay experience. So it has the knock-on effect of sacrificing challenging gameplay for 'challenging' progression (which really just means time-consuming). Again reasonable people can differ here - see my post about 'challenge' a page or so back.

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Everyone with half of a brain disagrees because insufficient penalties for failure mean that the game does not have any real challenge at all.

Far from being something "Everyone with half a brain" should agree on this is just demonstrably false. Assuming that you would consider returning to the last checkpoint in the same game state to be 'insufficient'. Because 'insufficient' could mean very different things in different games. I don't think I know of a game where there is literally nothing lost you just pick up and continue without penalty. Unless you count Sekiro which has the revive mechanic, so death is often completely loss-free. That hardly gets described as easy though despite that.

Lots of games are challenging to complete without any penalty other than going back to a checkpoint and starting the encounter again. Black Myth Wukong comes to mind - maybe it's not the hardest game in the world but for most people it's a challenging game. It's certainly not easy (though, I don't recall if it has difficulty settings, I don't think so? either way the difficulty I played was far from easy). You literally lose nothing but the time that failed attempt took. Elden Ring has pretty much no punishment for dying to a boss as you can immediately run in and pick up your runes.

So, nice try again but that simply doesn't follow. Even if you disagree with my picks, I bet you can think of difficult games that don't take anything away on death except making you try again. And to be clear, I'm not arguing that's what POE2 endgame should have. But it is what POE2 campaign does and most people find the campaign challenging but rewarding (at least if SSF and for Acts 1-3). So there's even a counterexample in POE2 itself.

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To get rid of XP penalty would mean GGG would have to nerf loot drop rates to oblivion and make all monsters and bosses ten times more difficult than they are right now.

No they wouldn't, just like your assertion about waystones that's a non sequitur. It does not follow. There's no direct connection there and you are being completely hyperbolic.

we should be able to grind to lvl 100 with our clown builds

No .