Do all the XP penalty complainers just body brigade through the game? Honest question

"

Nyon#6673 wrote:

Dying once will literally cost you tens of hours of farming.

...

A better solution would be to reduce the exp required by abit.

The first point is exactly why I disagree. I don't have a reason to think you have a strong build and had minimal deaths. Stuff just one shots you, other stuff takes a few tries to even know what to do and people make mistakes. I have watched plenty of streamers with strong builds just get wiped out of nowhere. And the one shots were in POE1 too, its part of the game. It implies a ton of time, not skill or a good build. Maybe the good build meant you were getting those setbacks at higher levels, or slightly less. But when it takes even the best that long to get there, it doesn't look like minimal deaths. Even if this isn't the case the perception just piles on the other problems. Managing player feelings and perceptions is part of good game design.

I have seen the argument that "those might not have actually been good builds". But if its that hard to identify what's a good build, we are back to "you need to encourage experimentation not punish it."

To the second, in theory I can envision a place where the XP gain Vs potential loss is balanced to not cause the issues it does. There probably is a balance point where you are not encouraged to play overly cautious and boring, but I have no actual faith that balance would ever be found. It really feels like you are much more likely to not be penalizing enough or not be giving enough XP. Its so much easier and smoother to replace this penalty with a different one. There is a reason most games use different systems these days and the ones that still have XP loss both let you reclaim some of it and are games where you can beat the entire thing on skill alone (see: Elden Ring).

Honest Question: Why this specific penalty? No one in this thread has said "I like it because it encourages X, Y, and Z" as a defense. The only defense seems to be "it discourages a kind of play I do not think should be in the game" or " no no no, other things should be changed. This specific penalty needs to stay." What does XP loss add that the other alternatives don't? Does it encourage something in a stronger/better way? From my POV it doesn't do anything special or in a better way than other death penalties. Especially since I am not actually convinced it stops body boarding. It seems like this just means you body board at the start of a level or when you think you hit a specific good point in build and gear. I have defiantly seen people hit 85, 90 and just stop caring about XP loss. Waystones seem like what actually stops that, by dropping so infrequently.

"

Nyon#6673 wrote:

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

It's really not that complicated.

Exp penalty sucks. It's bad game design, and all it does is waste people's time.

Stop blaming the players for bad game design, and nobody should care how someone chooses to play a game and if they die 1 or 100 times to something before getting past it lmao this isn't some e-sport this is a PVE game it shouldn't even have any death penalties. There is no "right" way to play a game, let alone an arpg. If a game is so frustrating and bad that it makes people uninstall and quit then its on the devs to fix that, because guess what this is a live-service game. And EA is the best time for feedback and big changes in the game. The ascendancy trials are also another example of how this game has completely failed to retain players even during its campaign. Trying to make a "niche" """hardcore""" arpg that 5000 players enjoy isn't a very profitable idea.

All of them should be optional and if people want to they can enable em, there you go fixed all the issues with death penalties and everyone is happy. This is also why custom leagues exist, people can pay money to add custom mods. Just detach on-death penalties from this game and make them custom league mods. That's a 2nd solution I just came up with in 2 minutes. Its so easy to fix this its laughable literally it would take a few days for them to make these changes.

But hey maybe GGG will triple-down on the vision and watch as everyone leaves this boring slog of a game that disrespects the player's time investment completely.


Fact is that nobody should be telling me how to play a videogame, that's just bad design. I play games to have fun not to play it "how the devs intended". Exp penalty and 1 portal per map just pushes people into a certain playstyle,limiting the game extremely so much that it just makes people quit because why would anyone waste their time going 1 step forward 10 steps backward any time they die to a oneshot? People have better things to do with their time, just you wait till Monster Hunter Wilds comes out and all the flavor of the month tourists hop onto that train lmao


Like its time to move on and abandon all these outdated,archaic designs from 20+ years ago "just cus D2 had them". This is a horrible way to design a game.

The problem with threads like this are people like you.

Obviously there are people on both sides, some like it some dont.

You could atleast try to form an arguemnt instead of just spouting nonsense.

A) Why is it bad game design?

B) If its completetly pointless then why is it used in so many games?

C) If its outdated design then why do so many people enjoy it and comment that they disagree with posts like this?

Your whole argument is that they shouldnt tell you how to play the game because you want to play a build or just be bad at the game in general so you die every 2nd map and you should still be able to reach level 100.
It makes no sense. By the same argument they would have to reduce all boss hp by 95% because if they dont then I cant play my dream build of going full defence and having zero damage.

How dare they tell me how to play the game when all I want to do is stack life, es, armor, evasion and hit for 50 damage.

These things were all answered in this or other threads, I'd be asking you to read a bunch which you probably do not want to but I'll say a bit again in regards to point b and c.

First, not that many "enjoy" it since they oppose solutions that would make everyone happy (optional for rewards, league such as ssf, other optional ways to implement) instead it is an ego thing where they feel threatened that their "achievement" is not really one. Ego issues aside of players who cannot make it anywhere thus pretend it matters the other side is RMT/service sellers who have a vested interest in these things. Trade groups want it because specific builds are very safe and easy/meta to grind to 100 and this gives you price fixing advantages.

Now, point B. It was introduced a long time ago to pad out gametime in a time of no updates or online connection for games with origins in some tabletop rpg's. It was always shit on, magnitudes more than what happens here to GGG, for example in everquest. People always hated it but stuck around because the game was good enough to deal with it. People psychologically hate it, the feeling of loss. It was never beneficial to anything, GGG has this obsession with friction and whilst it may be fine with the low cost PoE1, 2 wants a larger audience and you cannot be content with a 15k player audience.. unless ofc the employee leaks are true and poe2 is only a mtx cashgrab.

"

alhazred70#2994 wrote:

"

Rivance#3976 wrote:

"This game is the dark souls of the arpg genre! It's so hard and fun!!!" and "Never, ever do aspirational content where you risk dying." certainly go together like peanut butter and jelly for some of you folks. You can't have it both ways. Either it's a hard game and pushing yourself should be rewarding, or it's an easy game and choosing to do content that might actually kill you is a mistake.

false dichotomy.

There's too little and too much (which is what we're arguing about) there needs to be some balance of challenge (risk vs reward) and overcoming it wether its deliberately taking risks or doing it safely by outscaling; that feels good to fans of any given game genre or sub genre. Some games are harder and more punishing some are less so. Its a spectrum not an either or. A series of choices that are either fun and compelling because they aren't trivial (can punish you) or they are light weight choices that mostly don't matter and success is handed out for simply showing up. This IMO is what you get with "too little punishment".

D4 as a great example. No important choices, punishments for failure are next to non-existant. This makes D4 a bad game. Too little consequence for bad choices = bad game. Too much can also be bad, playing HC can be too much potential for punishment so I don't do it. But an XP penalty? Thats avoidable via farming AKA playing the game correctly.

If you're constantly feeling weak and dying in a ARPG its because you're failing to attain the win condition of the game. Its feedback thats supposed to tell you to play better. Not complain that your bad play resulted in punishment.

Here is an example of a try hard troll who can't even read a problem if its (yup, you are an it!) life depends on it.
1. How is this dark souls like ? When you die you have a chance to go and get your souls back .. where is that in PoE2 "endgame" - yup waste of time!
2. D4 has no endgame but D4 crafting it is so bad that you brick most of your potential upgrades making in a WASTE OF TIME just like PoE 2 endgame.
3. "Play the game correctly" - what ? no diversity ? how fun
4. There has NOT been one single complain about the difficulty of the game. Just waste of time systems like 1 portal maps which causes XP loss and items loss. (If you can port out and stash the items - where is the benefit/risk of losing it in the 1st place .. oh yeah just more wasting time ?.. what a moronic system)
Also what a moronic comment!

"

adrenrocker#5143 wrote:

"

Nyon#6673 wrote:

Dying once will literally cost you tens of hours of farming.

...

A better solution would be to reduce the exp required by abit.

The first point is exactly why I disagree. I don't have a reason to think you have a strong build and had minimal deaths. Stuff just one shots you, other stuff takes a few tries to even know what to do and people make mistakes. I have watched plenty of streamers with strong builds just get wiped out of nowhere. And the one shots were in POE1 too, its part of the game. It implies a ton of time, not skill or a good build. Maybe the good build meant you were getting those setbacks at higher levels, or slightly less. But when it takes even the best that long to get there, it doesn't look like minimal deaths. Even if this isn't the case the perception just piles on the other problems. Managing player feelings and perceptions is part of good game design.

I have seen the argument that "those might not have actually been good builds". But if its that hard to identify what's a good build, we are back to "you need to encourage experimentation not punish it."

To the second, in theory I can envision a place where the XP gain Vs potential loss is balanced to not cause the issues it does. There probably is a balance point where you are not encouraged to play overly cautious and boring, but I have no actual faith that balance would ever be found. It really feels like you are much more likely to not be penalizing enough or not be giving enough XP. Its so much easier and smoother to replace this penalty with a different one. There is a reason most games use different systems these days and the ones that still have XP loss both let you reclaim some of it and are games where you can beat the entire thing on skill alone (see: Elden Ring).

Honest Question: Why this specific penalty? No one in this thread has said "I like it because it encourages X, Y, and Z" as a defense. The only defense seems to be "it discourages a kind of play I do not think should be in the game" or " no no no, other things should be changed. This specific penalty needs to stay." What does XP loss add that the other alternatives don't? Does it encourage something in a stronger/better way? From my POV it doesn't do anything special or in a better way than other death penalties. Especially since I am not actually convinced it stops body boarding. It seems like this just means you body board at the start of a level or when you think you hit a specific good point in build and gear. I have defiantly seen people hit 85, 90 and just stop caring about XP loss. Waystones seem like what actually stops that, by dropping so infrequently.

I think your just under a misconception.

If you have a decent build that can clear top end content then every single one shot is avoidable. And to be clear im not defending on death effects, there is far too many of them and they are incredibly annoying especially in combination with other mechanics (phasing, etc). But im mapping top end maps all day and there isnt a single thing that kills me that I cant avoid.

The reason exp penalty is in the game is to discourage glass cannon builds and secondly so that reaching level 100 is a challenge and not just a time investment. You can have the opinion that its not fun and that it would be better without, thats fine, but those are still valid reasons that alot of us enjoy. In the end I think its very unlikely that ggg removes them since they didnt in poe1 and alot of people enjoy poe2 and defend the mechanics.
Best case scenario is that they tune it down abit.

"

BK2710#6123 wrote:

These things were all answered in this or other threads, I'd be asking you to read a bunch which you probably do not want to but I'll say a bit again in regards to point b and c.

First, not that many "enjoy" it since they oppose solutions that would make everyone happy (optional for rewards, league such as ssf, other optional ways to implement) instead it is an ego thing where they feel threatened that their "achievement" is not really one. Ego issues aside of players who cannot make it anywhere thus pretend it matters the other side is RMT/service sellers who have a vested interest in these things. Trade groups want it because specific builds are very safe and easy/meta to grind to 100 and this gives you price fixing advantages.

Now, point B. It was introduced a long time ago to pad out gametime in a time of no updates or online connection for games with origins in some tabletop rpg's. It was always shit on, magnitudes more than what happens here to GGG, for example in everquest. People always hated it but stuck around because the game was good enough to deal with it. People psychologically hate it, the feeling of loss. It was never beneficial to anything, GGG has this obsession with friction and whilst it may be fine with the low cost PoE1, 2 wants a larger audience and you cannot be content with a 15k player audience.. unless ofc the employee leaks are true and poe2 is only a mtx cashgrab.

1. Them being answered in different threads is completetly irrelevant, not every1 reads every comment in every thread.

2. Secondly from what Ive read its mostly just the same thing over and over, just whining about it being pointless and some fake reference to player numbers going down.

3. You not liking it is valid, but the tons of people defending it in threads "arent actually enjoying it" because its just ego, nice argument. The fact is that alot of people play the game and alot of people defend it because alot of us actually like it and want it to stay in the game.

4. You couldnt possibly be more wrong about it being a outdated mechanic, brand new games that are played online release with these mechanics. Elden ring just as an example. Its a common mechanic in alot of top end games, and its for a reason, and its the same reason why so many defend it and the same reason why it wasnt removed in poe1 and havent been removed in poe2 yet.

You cant argue against facts.

"

Sogardev#9713 wrote:

Here is an example of a try hard troll who can't even read a problem if its (yup, you are an it!) life depends on it.
1. How is this dark souls like ? When you die you have a chance to go and get your souls back .. where is that in PoE2 "endgame" - yup waste of time!
2. D4 has no endgame but D4 crafting it is so bad that you brick most of your potential upgrades making in a WASTE OF TIME just like PoE 2 endgame.
3. "Play the game correctly" - what ? no diversity ? how fun
4. There has NOT been one single complain about the difficulty of the game. Just waste of time systems like 1 portal maps which causes XP loss and items loss. (If you can port out and stash the items - where is the benefit/risk of losing it in the 1st place .. oh yeah just more wasting time ?.. what a moronic system)
Also what a moronic comment!

1. Obviously its not a soulslike game since its a completetly different genre.
But if youve ever played dark souls or elden ring then its instantly obvious where they have taken inspiration from and they have also stated this themselves. And its a fair comperassion to make to a different game genre where people are enjoying punishing mechanics.
Secondly in Elden ring when you die you lose 100% of the exp but have the chance to pick them back up,which you obviously wont always do. In poe2 you lose 10% of exp. I guarantee you that for the average player the exp loss in elden ring is worse.

2. D4 bad

3. Silly argument, just because the game should have diversity doesnt mean you should be allowed to just chain die your way to level 100. By that same argument they would have to reduce all boss hp by 95% because I might want to make a full tank build with only defences and attack for 50 dmg. Why should you be allowed to just chain die your way to 100 but I shouldnt be allowed to play the game my way?

4. Complaining about xp penalty is by definition complaining about a form of challenge in the game. Tho it is fair to specify that you dont want boss/mob mechanics to be easier and I agree people shouldnt take an elitist aproach against it.


The thing people dont realise is that the exp penalty is almost non existant until lvl 90+ and when you reach level 90 your character has basicly peaked. Pretty much all build guides you see are made for a lvl 90 character, the power you get from leveling past 90 is tiny and you can do all end game content from that point on. Lvl 90+ characters are for high tier min maxed characters, and by that point it is fair for there to be a challenge where you cant just chain die to get there.

Lots of these players are trying to gatekeep so hard its weird. Who cares in a single player game if someone makes it to level 100.

after all the sentiment seems to be for people who want this garbage to stay says "the last 10 or so levels don't matter." to that, then why is the level cap even 100? Players shouldn't worry about how others play, especially as arbitrary as getting level 100 when this is a single player game.

so what you're level 100. do you have gear or currency to tackle things? all this is does is punish people for wanting to invest into your game

"

Nyon#6673 wrote:

"

BK2710#6123 wrote:

These things were all answered in this or other threads, I'd be asking you to read a bunch which you probably do not want to but I'll say a bit again in regards to point b and c.

First, not that many "enjoy" it since they oppose solutions that would make everyone happy (optional for rewards, league such as ssf, other optional ways to implement) instead it is an ego thing where they feel threatened that their "achievement" is not really one. Ego issues aside of players who cannot make it anywhere thus pretend it matters the other side is RMT/service sellers who have a vested interest in these things. Trade groups want it because specific builds are very safe and easy/meta to grind to 100 and this gives you price fixing advantages.

Now, point B. It was introduced a long time ago to pad out gametime in a time of no updates or online connection for games with origins in some tabletop rpg's. It was always shit on, magnitudes more than what happens here to GGG, for example in everquest. People always hated it but stuck around because the game was good enough to deal with it. People psychologically hate it, the feeling of loss. It was never beneficial to anything, GGG has this obsession with friction and whilst it may be fine with the low cost PoE1, 2 wants a larger audience and you cannot be content with a 15k player audience.. unless ofc the employee leaks are true and poe2 is only a mtx cashgrab.

1. Them being answered in different threads is completetly irrelevant, not every1 reads every comment in every thread.

2. Secondly from what Ive read its mostly just the same thing over and over, just whining about it being pointless and some fake reference to player numbers going down.

3. You not liking it is valid, but the tons of people defending it in threads "arent actually enjoying it" because its just ego, nice argument. The fact is that alot of people play the game and alot of people defend it because alot of us actually like it and want it to stay in the game.

4. You couldnt possibly be more wrong about it being a outdated mechanic, brand new games that are played online release with these mechanics. Elden ring just as an example. Its a common mechanic in alot of top end games, and its for a reason, and its the same reason why so many defend it and the same reason why it wasnt removed in poe1 and havent been removed in poe2 yet.

You cant argue against facts.

Indeed, so I'll just use the facts you presented to save myself time as you argue for my point.

1) it bears some relevancy as this is a topic referring to other topics, being in the know is required to really make statements about it but that is too meta and really not that important now.

2) there's more to it but you said yourself that you do not read comments so this can be dismissed as just like defenders saying useless things like skill issue so to those disliking it, as there are constructive posts on either side. So this is a non argument.

3) tons of people also dislike it, one group is not more important than the other. As such it should be topic of how everyone can be satisfied, and there are a lot of suggestions for this flying around so neither group has to be affected by the other (such as league settings akin to ssf or opt in features) since it is not realistic or a good solution for one side to claim superiority and importance over the other. Just reverses the situation to where people would complain about lack of penalties they want if we assume that is true (and nowhere to be seen in any game not having them lol).

4) Elden Ring lets you regain what you lost, your XP is also your gold it is not the same. What you spend is what you keep forever, also you can overgrind to hell and back. Personally I dealt more than 20% HP dmg to every boss because I farmed my build and was close to level 200 in first playthrough. If you think this is the same as the death penalties in PoE2 then you are intellectually dishonest and attempt to gaslight others to agree with you. No new game has true death penalties... for starters Elden Ring gives you infinite boss attempts with no loss for trying 100 times if you care about it.

"

Nyon#6673 wrote:

I think your just under a misconception.

If you have a decent build that can clear top end content then every single one shot is avoidable. And to be clear im not defending on death effects, there is far too many of them and they are incredibly annoying especially in combination with other mechanics (phasing, etc). But im mapping top end maps all day and there isnt a single thing that kills me that I cant avoid.

The reason exp penalty is in the game is to discourage glass cannon builds and secondly so that reaching level 100 is a challenge and not just a time investment. You can have the opinion that its not fun and that it would be better without, thats fine, but those are still valid reasons that alot of us enjoy. In the end I think its very unlikely that ggg removes them since they didnt in poe1 and alot of people enjoy poe2 and defend the mechanics.
Best case scenario is that they tune it down abit.

If you play a Sorc where you rely on Frost Walls for defense AND offense, there are maps where the layouts are so bad you literally cannot place your walls. The tiny little rickety bridge paths in Mire are a prime example. This means just doing that map I am risking death every time because my offense AND defense are tied directly to my ability to place walls. That's not a player skill issue, that's a design issue. I don't have a choice to not do Mire. Sometimes it's a choke point on the atlas I HAVE to go through to get to the other side. This forces me to engage in risky "content" that I don't want to engage in, then I get punished for it if I die. My only solution here would be to either reset the entire atlas or try to push through it. Neither option is ideal.

"

BK2710#6123 wrote:

"

Nyon#6673 wrote:

"

BK2710#6123 wrote:

These things were all answered in this or other threads, I'd be asking you to read a bunch which you probably do not want to but I'll say a bit again in regards to point b and c.

First, not that many "enjoy" it since they oppose solutions that would make everyone happy (optional for rewards, league such as ssf, other optional ways to implement) instead it is an ego thing where they feel threatened that their "achievement" is not really one. Ego issues aside of players who cannot make it anywhere thus pretend it matters the other side is RMT/service sellers who have a vested interest in these things. Trade groups want it because specific builds are very safe and easy/meta to grind to 100 and this gives you price fixing advantages.

Now, point B. It was introduced a long time ago to pad out gametime in a time of no updates or online connection for games with origins in some tabletop rpg's. It was always shit on, magnitudes more than what happens here to GGG, for example in everquest. People always hated it but stuck around because the game was good enough to deal with it. People psychologically hate it, the feeling of loss. It was never beneficial to anything, GGG has this obsession with friction and whilst it may be fine with the low cost PoE1, 2 wants a larger audience and you cannot be content with a 15k player audience.. unless ofc the employee leaks are true and poe2 is only a mtx cashgrab.

1. Them being answered in different threads is completetly irrelevant, not every1 reads every comment in every thread.

2. Secondly from what Ive read its mostly just the same thing over and over, just whining about it being pointless and some fake reference to player numbers going down.

3. You not liking it is valid, but the tons of people defending it in threads "arent actually enjoying it" because its just ego, nice argument. The fact is that alot of people play the game and alot of people defend it because alot of us actually like it and want it to stay in the game.

4. You couldnt possibly be more wrong about it being a outdated mechanic, brand new games that are played online release with these mechanics. Elden ring just as an example. Its a common mechanic in alot of top end games, and its for a reason, and its the same reason why so many defend it and the same reason why it wasnt removed in poe1 and havent been removed in poe2 yet.

You cant argue against facts.

Indeed, so I'll just use the facts you presented to save myself time as you argue for my point.

1) it bears some relevancy as this is a topic referring to other topics, being in the know is required to really make statements about it but that is too meta and really not that important now.

2) there's more to it but you said yourself that you do not read comments so this can be dismissed as just like defenders saying useless things like skill issue so to those disliking it, as there are constructive posts on either side. So this is a non argument.

3) tons of people also dislike it, one group is not more important than the other. As such it should be topic of how everyone can be satisfied, and there are a lot of suggestions for this flying around so neither group has to be affected by the other (such as league settings akin to ssf or opt in features) since it is not realistic or a good solution for one side to claim superiority and importance over the other. Just reverses the situation to where people would complain about lack of penalties they want if we assume that is true (and nowhere to be seen in any game not having them lol).

4) Elden Ring lets you regain what you lost, your XP is also your gold it is not the same. What you spend is what you keep forever, also you can overgrind to hell and back. Personally I dealt more than 20% HP dmg to every boss because I farmed my build and was close to level 200 in first playthrough. If you think this is the same as the death penalties in PoE2 then you are intellectually dishonest and attempt to gaslight others to agree with you. No new game has true death penalties... for starters Elden Ring gives you infinite boss attempts with no loss for trying 100 times if you care about it.

1. No your wrong, someone just making a negative comment where everything is bad for no reason and providing zero constructive feedback, arguments or facts is just bad. It is irrelevant what points others might have pointed out in other threads. You are just coping at this point.

2. I never said I didnt read other comments, I think you need to read the entire comment before replying to it. And im just pointing out that I havent seen any valid argument against it other then that people dont enjoy it, which is fine, but dont try to make an argument that its pointless and that everyone hates it, because that is false. Someone saying that they dont enjoy it and that they would like it changed is fine, thats good feedback. But the people who are just negative and spouting off nonsense about it having no purpose and how everyone is leaving because of it are just wrong, there are valid reasons for it being in the game, which have been pointed out several times, but people just try to deny that because they dont understand how the game works.

3. I agree alot of people do dislike it, and alot of people like it.
And I would disagree with someone who just replied "skill issue" as much as I do when someone is just negative and making up stuff about it having no purpose in the game. It is in this game and alot of other games for valid reasons, and those who dont enjoy it are free to point it out. But theres also alot of people who do enjoy it and considering how popular the game is it isnt logical for ggg to change a game that hundreds of thousands are enjoying to try and cater to everyone. No game is made for everyone. This is one of the reasons why fromsoftware have been so successful, every single game release theres a horde of players raging about the game having no difficulty options, but they correctly realise that to make a truly great game they cant cater to everyone.

4. I dont really see the relevance in specificly comparing the elden ring mechanic to poe2 mechanic, its two different game genres. The point is that its a similar mechanic in a newly released game of the year game. I can argue that the exp loss in elden ring is alot worse, but its kinda pointless because if you dig into specifics then its gonna be too many things that are uncomparable since its not a comparable game. There are also tons of other examples that could be given, the point is that its not like poe2 is the only game that punishes you for dying. And its probably not a coincidence that several massive gaming companies decide to put these mechanics in their game.
Its a point that people bring up only to silence people who are crying about it having no purpose, because if you think about it logicly then you realise pretty quickly that it wouldnt be a mechanic in several top tier games with no purpose.