It's 2025, and XP Penalties on Death Still Exist?

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Redthorne82#3177 wrote:

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

If we were given the option to turn it off in the settings, 99% of people would. This alone is proof that its bad game design lmao

I, like many people, would play with it off, because not doing so would be actively hindering ourselves, but I would also get bored of leagues 10x faster and probably not spend nearly as much money over time. I already usually hit 100 with a character and play a couple extra days and quit. That might take me a month. If it took a week, I'd be done in a week. They don't want that.

Firstly nobody is saying they need to do this in a vacuum - they could double or triple or increase by 10x the XP curve past level 80 or 90 or whatever number they choose if they think it wouldn't take long enough.

Second, if you truly think it would lessen your experience why wouldn't you keep it on? And why stop at level 100 when there is still gear and maybe passives etc. to grind for?

The XP loss isn't an issue for elite gamers who are happy to play it safe so there is no risk of dying and then happy to give up trying at level 9X.

It is absolutely demoralising and frustrating beyond belief, and patronizing actually, to those who are, for whatever reason, behind the power curve. Maybe trying to find their own way through the game, made their own build, don't like trading, had back RNG with drops and crafting. Whatever the reason, I'd wager it is a heck of a lot of players who will be stuck well before the arbitrary level 90 elites seem to have deemed the only time people will hit a wall.

Players are forced to actually go backwards and play easier content than they have already been successfully completing to progress through previous levels. But now the XP loss is increased more than survivability has so that difficulty is off limits. The game actually punishes you for levelling up by increasing the amount of XP lost and reducing the XP gained.

They wouldn't even need to increase the exp needed to level, since it already take a ridiculous amount of time to get levels past 90.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

Man, the first two bosses you kill. Less than half the players that start playing, ever get to this point.

Hmm.. To me, that's pointing to a sign of a game not having good player retention, and potentially has systems or mechanics in it. That is actively having most players quit.

I wonder if XP loss on death is one of those reasons.

You're honestly hilarious. XP loss on death doesn't even kick in until Act 6, but yeah, I'm sure that's the reason half the people didn't kill Brutus.

The best part, this isn't opinion. You just actually lied straight out. It's great when you morons do the work for me.

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Redthorne82#3177 wrote:

We're in a place where you can't lose gear, passive points (deleveling), or any meaningful player power.

We've been in this place for about 20 years now and without losing xp as well in other games.

Or are you just talking about this game? Just asking as the "We're in a place where" can go both ways between the general concept/consensus of the gaming industry as well as this franchise only.

If you're talking about this game, don't make it sound like an achievement, it isn't when the norms are pointing into a different direction ( I'm not saying that they should follow the norm, that's up to them, but anyway I think you get my point ).

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

The XP loss isn't an issue for elite gamers who are happy to play it safe so there is no risk of dying and then happy to give up trying at level 9X.

It is absolutely demoralising and frustrating beyond belief, and patronizing actually, to those who are, for whatever reason, behind the power curve. Maybe trying to find their own way through the game, made their own build, don't like trading, had back RNG with drops and crafting. Whatever the reason, I'd wager it is a heck of a lot of players who will be stuck well before the arbitrary level 90 elites seem to have deemed the only time people will hit a wall.

Everything you mentioned is a time issue.

Made your own build? So did I for PoE2. Took me longer than a meta build, but I hit 95 now.

Don't like trading? I played SSF until about 80. I was already doing T10s and was still finding upgrades - I really only traded currency to craft with until level 90+ when I wanted to play with fun uniques and stuff (I was already doing citadels and endgame stuff before that anyway).

Bad RNG? Time. RNG isn't bad forever.

"Stuck" is not a game problem with ARPGs. Everyone is given exactly the same tools. Online resources are available with a Google search. The guy with mirror-tier gear two weeks in isn't wearing that gear to make you feel bad. The fact that you feel bad isn't that guy's fault. He's probably put 20,000 hours into PoE1 and understood the economic systems faster.

You have all the same potential, and if you decide it's not worth the time, that's fine, but that's on you.

I'll never be a master at the clarinet, but I don't blame the people that made clarinets for that.

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Talamor1#0630 wrote:

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

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Talamor1#0630 wrote:

xp penalty is the reason why this game remains competitive for so long and ensures player retention for several weeks.

I don't want to discuss the same point in multiple threads but you posted the same thing in the other thread so I will challenge it here also.

Your claim taken literally, that this XP loss is the reason POE1 was successful is prima facie ridiculous. A more reasonable claim that it is one of the reasons is a more reasonable but still highly dubious claim.

Honest question, if it were taken out and the XP curve changed to make the last 10 levels take longer, would you be so upset that you would stop playing?

There is so much disregard for how strongly negative people feel about this, the counter being "well it's actually a good feature here's why...".

Honestly, if the last 10 levels were even harder to reach, it wouldn't make me quit the game.

I'd simply give up on the idea of reaching level 100 and set level 95 as my final goal, reworking my skill tree with 5 points less for the endgame.

I'll give you that, I was a bit hasty yesterday in what I wrote (because I did it from work), and the experience penalty isn't the only thing, but it's one of several things that keep players in the game for longer, in my opinion. Which is why in my opinion it's almost unthinkable that GGG would remove it.

A fair response.

I disagree that it, overall, increases the total amount of time players will be playing. It greatly extends it for some, while also significantly decreasing it for many others.

GGG have tried to make this game more accessible to a wider audience. If they removed the XP penalty that would work towards that goal and if done correctly (not in a vacuum) it would do nothing to reduce the enjoyment of the more serious players who previously enjoyed POE1 complete with XP loss.

I am hopeful they will actually change something despite the many claims they never will, because Jonathan said in an interview they are willing to consider changing something. If they reduce/replace the XP loss with opportunity loss as they have already done, that's a huge step in the next direction.

If I die on a map that had breach and a boss before completing those activities, that's OK. It's a setback, but I can move forwards. I look at my map and see where the next one is and figure out how to get there while working on my build and gear so I don't die next time.

But right now, if I die, I don't look at how I can try a similar challenge again. I look for safe nodes and plug boring waystones in the hopes I won't come out behind.
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Personal story time, in the hopes it might give some people insight into why many people dislike this so much.

For the record, I was seriously considering quitting over this but instead have put my warrior on hold and made a new character.

The campaign was exciting, fun, somewhat challenging and very enjoyable. Mapping was similarly interesting, exciting, fun and enjoyable.... for a while (albeit I have minor issues with both but trust GGG to address those issues).

Until the death penalty ramped up and I became dissuaded from even attempting the same difficulty of content I was previously enjoying. Please, think about how awful a feeling that is. I underlined that for a reason, please think about it. To be soft-locked out from enjoying a difficulty you previously enjoyed and were progressing on, how is that ever going to feel good?

You can say there were reasons for that and you'd be right - bad choice of build, bad gear, bad RNG, lack of skill, lack of knowledge. I was trying to play the game as a new player with little POE experience and only a modest amount of googling to learn those things for which PS5 tooltips don't work.

It's not the point. It would still have happened at some point. I always am looking to improve my character and learn the game better. I didn't need to be kicked in the face every time I fell over to try and improve my character.

But the issue isn't what level I got to or didn't reach. I don't care about or expect to get to level 100 before I fancy a change whether a new character or different game. I was having a lot of fun and excited to dig into the endgame and then this killed the fun for me. Without the XP loss my progress would have been slow. With it, even though I was still make progress overall, it was at the same time boring, frustrating, disheartening and even rage inducing. And I am usually one of the most calm, tolerant placid players you can imagine.

I am also someone who is lucky to be able to spend time on forums discussing games and giving what I believe to be constructive feedback. So, here I am.

Most who experience this will never come to these forums and never post about it. They will do what I was considering doing and stop playing, probably never to return unless this changes.

Or, they will do their research and not even try the game. Which is sad because everything else, albeit with warts, is great.

It's not going anywhere and the only real solution that you might get if you put (all) of the support for exp loss removal behind it would probably be (easy mode)

This game isn't even that hardcore about exp loss, it was designed this way and it isn't trying to "be" anything other than its genuine self in this regard.

Buy some omens, I posted in threads like these for years with the concept of omens to alleviate your woes, give em a try or ask for easy mode because there aren't any more solutions that make sense past the omens at least not that i think GGG would go for.

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mrxkon#5764 wrote:

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Redthorne82#3177 wrote:

We're in a place where you can't lose gear, passive points (deleveling), or any meaningful player power.

We've been in this place for about 20 years now and without losing xp as well in other games.

Or are you just talking about this game? Just asking as the "We're in a place where" can go both ways between the general concept/consensus of the gaming industry as well as this franchise only.

If you're talking about this game, don't make it sound like an achievement, it isn't when the norms are pointing into a different direction ( I'm not saying that they should follow the norm, that's up to them, but anyway I think you get my point ).

I mean this game specifically. Like we could have it SO much worse with items being potentially destroyed on death, inventories lost, GOLD lost now that that's a thing...

So much of this forum is the online equivalent of someone (metaphorically) walking into a Chipotle and gunning down the staff because they changed the font on their logo (or because they don't like their logo).

We're so damned used to getting it easy and gaming to just be "simple" that anything challenging becomes WORK. Puzzles exist, why assume no one wants to do them?

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Talamor1#0630 wrote:

Please GGG, do not listen to those who ask you to remove the experience penalty. Don't make this game any worse than it already is.

xp penalty is the reason why this game remains competitive for so long and ensures player retention for several weeks.

You lose experience if you die.
You grind for hours to buy better equipment to not die again and level up. And thanks to your extra level, you get an extra skill point which makes you even stronger, and which will allow you to grind even more to buy even better equipment to level up, etc...

without xp penalty, you no longer need to buy better equipment.
All you have to do is launch a bunch of maps and farm them like a brainless person without even looking at your screen. Even if your build sucks, you'll still end up levelling up to level 100...

Thanks to the penalty, you're rewarded if you have a reliable, solid enough build, and if your playing style allows you to avoid death.

Competitive in a fucking game where you just want to reach max level and increase your character power ? Brother there's no esport here what even is the point of competitive, you ain't gonna do money because you reached lvl 100 with xp penalty on death, wtf are you on brother

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nicolas80540#0768 wrote:

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Talamor1#0630 wrote:

Please GGG, do not listen to those who ask you to remove the experience penalty. Don't make this game any worse than it already is.

xp penalty is the reason why this game remains competitive for so long and ensures player retention for several weeks.

You lose experience if you die.
You grind for hours to buy better equipment to not die again and level up. And thanks to your extra level, you get an extra skill point which makes you even stronger, and which will allow you to grind even more to buy even better equipment to level up, etc...

without xp penalty, you no longer need to buy better equipment.
All you have to do is launch a bunch of maps and farm them like a brainless person without even looking at your screen. Even if your build sucks, you'll still end up levelling up to level 100...

Thanks to the penalty, you're rewarded if you have a reliable, solid enough build, and if your playing style allows you to avoid death.

Competitive in a fucking game where you just want to reach max level and increase your character power ? Brother there's no esport here what even is the point of competitive, you ain't gonna do money because you reached lvl 100 with xp penalty on death, wtf are you on brother

Better learn to live with it or move on because it isn't going away.