Floored by the power spike of TRADING. This will ruin the game.

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Solmyr77#1930 wrote:

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

What do you picture the for gameplay lol that you feel trade is breaking BTW?

Isn't it petty much: kill stuff -> get loot -> [X] -> power increases?

I have a hard time seeing a functional difference between crafting your gear as step X or trading.

Not OP but I think there's a massive functional difference between finding loot on your own or by getting it handed down to you for a bit of currency.

Take an exalted orb as an example. You can either use it on your best piece of gear hoping for a relevant 5th or even 6th affix OR you can buy a full item that's 20-100x as good.

That turns your gameplay loop into something akin to work, you grind for pennies until you can buy something cool. I'd rather grind for the cool stuff directly.

I mostly have a problem with this pay to win feature where trade allows you to skip multiple tiers of content.

Spot on. I would add to this that because of the increased difficulty of POE 2, players will be driven to the auction house more. Combined with the crazed farming the power spike is MASSIVE! So as the economy currently stands, if they spend 3 orbs on 3 pieces of gear they will have a power spike of easily 300% between the massive damage increase and armor additions.

This sort of jump will invalidate all content for a great deal of time, and make them accustomed to shopping the Trade window over finding their own gear. The discrepency between the two has to be felt to be believed. I'm not sure people understand just how much power can be bought for cheap right now, and the potential for it to grow worse is imminent as scripts and other automated trading tools become prevalent.

It also becomes a design crutch. We don't want loot tables created with the notoion of "eh, the player can trade for this, it'll solve itself"

We want the thrill of knowing we can progress with loot we have found, and knowing that the game is well tuned when insulated. This is exactly why diablo 2 has survived the test of time so well, it has such a wonderfully balanced path to power start to finish with no trade necessary.

Those moments of finding that wonderful rare item in Diablo 2 outshine almost all other ARPGs.

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grepman#2451 wrote:

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Solmyr77#1930 wrote:

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

For them, there is solo-self-found. Everyone is happy. So why even make this thread?

Last Epoch tried to mitigate that gap between traders and ssf-players. I'd love an ssf mode with improved drop rates.

Ive been playing poe for over a decade, and this is majority of players who dont like trade, boils down to.

as in, they dont want to trade, but also they want better drops


ironically, getting better drops means doing exactly what the op is advocating against. it makes the grind shorter.


so when ssf with same drop rates as trade is not a solution, you know that the players arent really against instant gratification, they are just against game drops being balanced around trade.

Yes exactly. There is nothing ironic about it. I dont see where the op has any issues making the grind shorter, its only a problem of magnitude.

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Roquefort720xTreme#7938 wrote:

yeah thats an inane take by op. no one is arguing because there is no basis for an argument. your problem is already solved. you dont have to engage with it if you it lowers your enjoyment. others engaging in it has 0 detriment to your enjoyment. everything else is a matter of personal experience that you try to generalize. all that happens after is that people let you know that they dont share that generalized experience.

Tell me you haven't read the thread without telling me you haven't read the thread.

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crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

We want the thrill of knowing we can progress with loot we have found, and knowing that the game is well tuned when insulated. This is exactly why diablo 2 has survived the test of time so well, it has such a wonderfully balanced path to power start to finish with no trade necessary.

Those moments of finding that wonderful rare item in Diablo 2 outshine almost all other ARPGs.

What the hell are you talking about? I remember trading ((buying and selling items) in original diablo 2 back in the early 2k as much as I trade in poe1 nowadays.

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crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

It makes the experience less fun, for the vast majority of players.

Then play Solo Self Found, literally why the game mode was made for players like you

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Silverpelt#6095 wrote:

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crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

We want the thrill of knowing we can progress with loot we have found, and knowing that the game is well tuned when insulated. This is exactly why diablo 2 has survived the test of time so well, it has such a wonderfully balanced path to power start to finish with no trade necessary.

Those moments of finding that wonderful rare item in Diablo 2 outshine almost all other ARPGs.

What the hell are you talking about? I remember trading ((buying and selling items) in original diablo 2 back in the early 2k as much as I trade in poe1 nowadays.

The new plulgged in nature of gamers and the ultra hardcore playstyles that emerges as people adopt the habits of streamers has greatly diminished the fun and exploratory nature of trade. It's now a cold and simple system where players trade for measurable, immediate, and massive jumps in power into an end game where they slowly raise their power levels by predictable and bland small % gains at a time. This kills the magic.

Unfortunately, because trade is baked into much of the revenue potential of the game, GGG is largely trapped into catering towards trade, which has a MASSIVE negative impact of the enjoyment of the game and influences every design decision they make. With unrestricted trade they cannot tune the game to be maximized fun as games back in the day did like Diablo 2 where trade was a much more niche phenomenon for some time.

Diablo 2 did not have the same bottlenecking end game and persistent content that POE 2 will have, for this reason OP trade was never an issue, and it never became necessary to enjoy the game, it also never had built in tools and infrastructure until diablo 3 when it became a MASSIVE DISSASTER.

When you gate late game content behind massive difficulty spikes, and you allow palyers to easily trade for power, you are opening pandora's box and just asking for the balance and the enjoyment of the game to be gutted.

There are no half measure solutions for this, the most successful games in the RPG genre both in terms of enjoyment and player #'s do not allow the vast majority of worthwhile loot to be purchased. Simple as.

PoE 1 has survived (and flourished) while always being centered and balanced around an economy. PoE 2 will also do that. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and for those people we have SSF. Trading prolongs the longevity of endgame/high-end gameplay, even though some might see it as the opposite.

You have to at least get to the point you have the currency to trade for these mind blowing items you speak of.

When that makes the game feel boring, like all games eventually do, then you can play SSF, or HC SSF. If the game is boring after you attempt that, it may just be time to find something more interesting for a bit, and refresh.

The thing is that these games where loot makes you more powerful, and assists your progression, having high item power equals being highly powerful. If all loot was equal you would have a completely different type of game.

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

Trading prolongs the longevity of endgame/high-end gameplay, even though some might see it as the opposite.

There are two sides to it. When you're at a certain power level with a sword char and you find a bow with say 1500 dps, it's great to trade this with someone in the same boat who found a 1500 dps sword.

The bad side of trading is you can get that 1500 dps sword for some currency while in a part of the game where the highest potential drop is 400 dps. That trivializes and thus shortens the content.

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Morfyus#0139 wrote:

You have to at least get to the point you have the currency to trade for these mind blowing items you speak of.

When that makes the game feel boring, like all games eventually do, then you can play SSF, or HC SSF. If the game is boring after you attempt that, it may just be time to find something more interesting for a bit, and refresh.

The thing is that these games where loot makes you more powerful, and assists your progression, having high item power equals being highly powerful. If all loot was equal you would have a completely different type of game.

There is low teir loot that are huge power spikes for currency items you can get even at low levels, any player that wants to ruin their experience through trade power spikes has access to that.

The issue is that the Trade makes the game feel boring much sooner than is necessary. The moment a player begins trade, often well before the absolute late game, they will be consuming content at easily 5x the rate they could have been with a healthy self find rate of decent items.