Remove the support gem limit

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bobtank#2490 wrote:

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

Oh man the takes in this thread are so backwards. The limit makes the game MORE like PoE1, not less. We dont have 9 6-links per character in that game. Which is what the limit is effectively preventing.

I dont understand what you mean, how is changing a core mechanic from the original making it more like the original?

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

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bobtank#2490 wrote:

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

Oh man the takes in this thread are so backwards. The limit makes the game MORE like PoE1, not less. We dont have 9 6-links per character in that game. Which is what the limit is effectively preventing.

I dont understand what you mean, how is changing a core mechanic from the original making it more like the original?

Because the end result is more like the original with the limit than without it.
Yes I agree that superficially it does seem like a big change from the original, but the reality is that you did not reuse support skills for attack skills that much to begin with because you generally only had 1 or 2 items to 6-link.

If you remove the limit you will have the equivalent of 9 6-links. You have to tell me how exactly that is anywhere close to the original system?


In other words, giving everyone 9 6-links is a bigger change from PoE 1 than limiting support gems.

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bobtank#2490 wrote:

See my lightning sorc example, it's not about having 9 6 links, I'm not trying to get arthritis by having to click 9 buttons to make a build work. I can't even use arc and orb of storms at the same time, both skills chain. So naturally chain support is a better fit for both skills, however I can't do that on a sorceress, who's Main damage type is either cold or lightning. And 2 of the 3 lightning skills early game are chaining abilities. I'm forced to play gemling legionaiire just to get that interaction between the 2 skills happening. It's no where near the same as poe1 if you're gatekeeping basic skill/support interactions behind 1 of 36 classes.

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

I absolutely get the downsides of the current system that you are pointing out. It is limiting and it leads to 1-skill builds. But to say that it is somehow more of a step from PoE 1 than giving everyone 9 6-links is ridiculous.

The only thing you are achieving is showing that you have not really considered the consequences of what you are demanding.

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

The only thing you are achieving is showing that you have not really considered the consequences of what you are demanding.

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bobtank#2490 wrote:

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

The only thing you are achieving is showing that you have not really considered the consequences of what you are demanding.

The consequences of what I am suggesting is that the studio sticks to the core development designs that made path of exile a good game in the first place. If that didn't work then why are they able to generate +/- $50million in profit every year?

They're able to do that because the original system works. They're able to spend the resources on making a sequel because the original system was so good that it gave them the resources to do that.

The proof of concept already exists...

You can still get power spikes out of the current system, but they've done it in a way that takes the fun out of it. Which being a PVE video game, fun should take priority over balancing. If choosing sup-optimal support gems is fun to you then I don't know what to say. This isn't even a matter of balancing. The game is going to go through massive amounts of balance changes regardless of if they remove the limit or not. Atleast if they took away the limit there's one less barrier of entry for EVERYONE to one of the most comprehensive character customization systems in an arpg game to ever exist. The current state of it is a limiting factor to creativity. When people claim that they're forced to make more impactful decisions because of the change, they aren't. They're still going to filter through the 100s of support gems to find the best in slot to give them 1 of 3 power spikes in the form of offense, defense, and utility. If they remove the limit that's still going to be the case. But you can atleast make simple interactions between supports work because of it.

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

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bobtank#2490 wrote:

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

The only thing you are achieving is showing that you have not really considered the consequences of what you are demanding.

The consequences of what I am suggesting is that the studio sticks to the core development designs that made path of exile a good game in the first place. If that didn't work then why are they able to generate +/- $50million in profit every year?

They're able to do that because the original system works. They're able to spend the resources on making a sequel because the original system was so good that it gave them the resources to do that.

The proof of concept already exists...

You can still get power spikes out of the current system, but they've done it in a way that takes the fun out of it. Which being a PVE video game, fun should take priority over balancing. If choosing sup-optimal support gems is fun to you then I don't know what to say. This isn't even a matter of balancing. The game is going to go through massive amounts of balance changes regardless of if they remove the limit or not. Atleast if they took away the limit there's one less barrier of entry for EVERYONE to one of the most comprehensive character customization systems in an arpg game to ever exist. The current state of it is a limiting factor to creativity. When people claim that they're forced to make more impactful decisions because of the change, they aren't. They're still going to filter through the 100s of support gems to find the best in slot to give them 1 of 3 power spikes in the form of offense, defense, and utility. If they remove the limit that's still going to be the case. But you can atleast make simple interactions between supports work because of it.

Giving players 9 6-links is not "a core development design" of PoE 1. Limiting support gems is very much a "core development design" of PoE 1 only that the limit is of a different kind.

Pretenting that giving players 9 6-links makes the game more like PoE 1 is not going to help you win this argument or convince anyone that they should listen to you.

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bobtank#2490 wrote:

I know having 9 6links Isn't core to poe1 that's why I'm providing an argument against it in poe2, I don't know how you got the assumption that I was for it based on this thread? I'm saying that the limitation prevents simple fundamental interactions between skills, which why ive given the arc/Orb of storms example. Having 9 6 links where every additional support you socket is essentially a progressively watered down power spike because the support that makes sense has been taken out of the pool of available supports. You'd have the same power level as a 4 link with repeatable supports that make more sense to your characters theme if the limit was removed. It's not making anyone make a more impactful decision. The decision 90% of the time is "what support out of the available support pool gives me the most power". You're making that supposedly more meaningful decision whether the limit is there or isn't. What I'm saying is that not only is it an additional barrier to entry for casual players as now they need to have an indepth knowledge of all available supports to make a decision on what is the best support. It forces you to use supports that aren't necessarily a good fit for the theme for your build and prevents certain interactions from happening. In no way shape or form is removing *support* gems from the available pool a way of providing the player more options for character customization. It's only reducing the ability to come up with niche builds by limiting interactions between skills.

The core development design that I am referring to is the in depth character customization where the player has choice over the out come of their build. This limitation reduces those choices

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

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bobtank#2490 wrote:

I know having 9 6links Isn't core to poe1 that's why I'm providing an argument against it in poe2, I don't know how you got the assumption that I was for it based on this thread? I'm saying that the limitation prevents simple fundamental interactions between skills, which why ive given the arc/Orb of storms example. Having 9 6 links where every additional support you socket is essentially a progressively watered down power spike because the support that makes sense has been taken out of the pool of available supports. You'd have the same power level as a 4 link with repeatable supports that make more sense to your characters theme if the limit was removed. It's not making anyone make a more impactful decision. The decision 90% of the time is "what support out of the available support pool gives me the most power". You're making that supposedly more meaningful decision whether the limit is there or isn't. What I'm saying is that not only is it an additional barrier to entry for casual players as now they need to have an indepth knowledge of all available supports to make a decision on what is the best support. It forces you to use supports that aren't necessarily a good fit for the theme for your build and prevents certain interactions from happening. In no way shape or form is removing *support* gems from the available pool a way of providing the player more options for character customization. It's only reducing the ability to come up with niche builds by limiting interactions between skills.

The core development design that I am referring to is the in depth character customization where the player has choice over the out come of their build. This limitation reduces those choices

You are missing my point. I agree that you would have more options in terms of skill combinations if the support limit did not exist. The problem is that it would give players 9 fully supported 6-links. That is a very far cry from PoE 1 and also IMO a bad system. The current system limits the number of fully supported skills by making the secondary skills have access to lesser support gems.

You can come up with how many downsides of the current system as you like, but until you adress the real reason for its existance you are not going to get anywhere.