Jonathan Rogers Interview about POE1 playerbase

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eldheim#2436 wrote:

This quickly turned into an echo chamber of difficulty chads patting each other on their backs for asserting that everyone with a criticism just wants to "blast through maps in 30 seconds with one button click and zoom zoom zoom".

First, address actual criticism. Not made up metrics that fit your narrative.

Most criticism I've seen besides "give moar lootz" seems rather valid.
Very little has to do with actual difficulty, it seems to me a lot of it has to do with specific mechanics.

Rather than pigeonholing each other into hyperbolic opinions by selective hearing, how about having rationale discussions.

Because when I say the game is too slow for me, I'm not saying "I want to finish maps in 30 seconds with a one button skill with no difficulty".

If that is what you are deriving from that statement, it's like me saying "I think we should have a speed limit in heavily populated areas", and presuming I want to ban all cars.

Middle ground exists for a reason.
Different game modes exists for a reason.
Individual experiences derived from class and build selection alongside randomized loot exists.

Engage in conversations. Discuss solutions. I don't want to take away your fun, I just want a game I can enjoy as well.
The two are not mutually exclusive -it's called balance.

Refreshing common sense, sadly way too rare :)

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1453R#7804 wrote:

What's funny to me is that most of the PoE1 diehards aren't even really complaining about the difficulty per se. They're complaining - endlessly, and miles beyond the point of absurdity - about not being able to blast. They want to clear the game at literal lightning speed, moving through maps/instances in thirty seconds or less, one-tap a pack before the pack is even finished rendering, and the fact that they have to walk - with their own feet, no less! - and fight mobs and/or bosses for more than thirteen picoseconds is just excruciatingly, agonizingly unacceptable.

Like, they absolutely cannot deal with the fact that in order to get around an instance they have to walk, with their actual legs, instead of just using a movement skill to achieve escape velocity and dash around faster than the game can render frames. Or the fact that the bosses in the game get to actually use their abilities instead of being phased, stunlocked, and killed before their opening animation is done. Or the fact that packs in the game actually have health bars and aren't just there to explode into showers of thousands and thousands and thousands of drops the moment a PC gets within five screens of them.

To everybody else, it's like...this is just how games are supposed to work? PoE1 is the weird, ultra-niche exception; this is a regular game. And a damn good one at that, even with the early access jank. There's definitely Early Access Jank, for sure, but the bones are phenomenal.

We can absolutely zoom, just roll a deadeye and use lightning arrow. Its not rocket surgery.

The problem is literally every other spell and archetype feels awful, or if we do through the force of our own will and experimentation do find something that feels good to play we can expect it to be nuked from orbit. The problem is that the difficulty lays in the fact that basically every unique is offensively and defensively bereft and we're back to there being one singular chase unique and its headhunter again.

We literally have path of exile at home, it isn't in early access, we do not run the hazard of builds getting nuked from orbit with no notice when playing it, zones are a reasonable size, the uniques actually enable builds, stuff doesn't respawn unless you spawn the zone again. I didn't download an entire other game just to play lightning arrow deadeye.

Act 1 sucks pretty hard, act 2 sucks pretty hard, the ascendency stuff sounds awful. Yea, there is some good bones there but the new ninja turtles game has most of the same bones.

The point of the OP was to show that during early testing it was the POE1 players who were having issues with the difficulty more than the new players.

And from what I have seen on these forums is that what he says in the interview is exactly what I am seeing on the forum about the difficulty of the game.

This pushback largely seems to be from the POE1 elitist group.

Now I am not saying I want the game to be the equivalent of DS, or Elden Ring.

But I believe where the clash of heads is happening is because you have a group of players who enjoy engaging combat and difficult bosses and don't want to see that changed for a crappy ass loot bomb filled game where there is no depth

GGG will only be able to target certain groups for their game, such as it is with any game.

That's why their is Sports games, Souls like games, RPG etc...people will eventually move on to what they like.

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j33bus#3399 wrote:

Man, you almost made a reasonable point, but none of the people defending the game can seem to make a point without trying to insult the other side can they? There's almost no whining going on, just genuine feedback from people who dislike that state of the game.

Are we...are we reading the same forums?

This place has been an erupting volcano of molten salt since the microinstant the game's live time came and went. The ridiculous screeching has been legendary, even for this place.

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j33bus#3399 wrote:

For what it's worth, the problem really seems like the people designing character efficacy are designing for PoE 2, the people designing resources are designing something else, and the people designing encounters are still designing PoE 1. So the game just feels off because the systems are not made to work together. Which is also the problem when they tried to morph PoE 1 into this, they were changing players and leaving encounters alone. The game they want PoE 2 to be requires significantly more care put into, well everything, than they seem to want to do.

Most of that sounds like it could be solved with tuning rather than ground-up redesign. Which, yeah, the game definitely needs tuning. I'm not in endgame yet so I can't speak to the mapping experience. That seems to be everybody's big beef at the moment so I'll see when I get there. Even then, I have to wonder why the answer isn't "steer the ship onto a better course", but instead seems to be "sink the ship like it's a nuclear test target at Bikini Atoll and build a new ship out of the pieces that resembles a ship that was old during the first World War."

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j33bus#3399 wrote:

PoE 1's gear check style benefits greatly from lots of random thing changing all the time, PoE 2's methodical combat however, does not, it want's everything to be thought out completely, and significantly slower.

PoE1's gear-check style benefits from having infinite currency. That's...honestly about it. There's no Play, Experiment, Learn, Improve loop in PoE1. Not anymore. Either you know how to get infinite currency to assemble a Screen Destroyer 9000 build du jour, or you can barely get into maps. The game simply cannot be played without already knowing how to play it, and "how to play it" becomes more and more impossible to learn with each patch.

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j33bus#3399 wrote:

They also train you wrong, during the campaign, versus endgame. Endgame doesn't want you to engage mechanics, and fail and learn and try again, it punishes you so severally for that it's silly. The campaign though, wants you to beat your head against the wall and learn mechanics, but not upgrade your gear at all really.

I'm not sure the one-death-per-map thing is going to stick, frankly. I like the idea of it, but it feels like the sort of thing people won't accept until they know the game well enough to avoid deaths, and they won't know the game well enough to do that until they're given unlimited tries per map. And once you give them unlimited tries per map, you can't take that back again later.

I would say, however, that the assumption that every single map needs to be juiced to the nines is weird and unnecessary. my brother's in endgame and he's not juicing maps at all, has no issue with sustain. Incoming damage is an issue to hear him tell it, but not sustain without juicing balls.

It's more PoE1 mindset creeping into the new game. People trying to go balls-out before they're ready, getting slapped for it, and then complaining the game needs to be broken and redesigned to fit the old paradigm they already know. I hate that.

Tuning, fixing, course correction. NOT "throw the entire game out and just make a horrible hideous zombified-skinwalker approximation of PoE1 in PoE2's skin."

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We can absolutely zoom, just roll a deadeye and use lightning arrow. Its not rocket surgery.

The problem is literally every other spell and archetype feels awful, or if we do through the force of our own will and experimentation do find something that feels good to play we can expect it to be nuked from orbit. The problem is that the difficulty lays in the fact that basically every unique is offensively and defensively bereft and we're back to there being one singular chase unique and its headhunter again.

We literally have path of exile at home, it isn't in early access, we do not run the hazard of builds getting nuked from orbit with no notice when playing it, zones are a reasonable size, the uniques actually enable builds, stuff doesn't respawn unless you spawn the zone again. I didn't download an entire other game just to play lightning arrow deadeye.

Act 1 sucks pretty hard, act 2 sucks pretty hard, the ascendency stuff sounds awful. Yea, there is some good bones there but the new ninja turtles game has most of the same bones.

You are emotionally venting, and that's ok.

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Beast85#0920 wrote:

Personally I really hope it will stay.

The thing that many (mostly poe1 old timers and fans) havent' got is that even if similar, they are 2 separate games with different game mechanics.

TBH i LOVE PoE 2 way more than poe 1 only thing that is missing, in my opinion is an AH to trade witouth having to sweat and waste time in trade channels and worse (trading bots)

You don't have to trade through chat, just use the website? https://www.pathofexile.com/trade2

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Gimatria#7361 wrote:

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Beast85#0920 wrote:

Personally I really hope it will stay.

The thing that many (mostly poe1 old timers and fans) havent' got is that even if similar, they are 2 separate games with different game mechanics.

TBH i LOVE PoE 2 way more than poe 1 only thing that is missing, in my opinion is an AH to trade witouth having to sweat and waste time in trade channels and worse (trading bots)

You don't have to trade through chat, just use the website? https://www.pathofexile.com/trade2

The website literally goes through chat and is infested with scammers.

It's not a good solution, in fact it's fucking cancer.

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Xenus_Paradox#7530 wrote:

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Gimatria#7361 wrote:

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Beast85#0920 wrote:

Personally I really hope it will stay.

The thing that many (mostly poe1 old timers and fans) havent' got is that even if similar, they are 2 separate games with different game mechanics.

TBH i LOVE PoE 2 way more than poe 1 only thing that is missing, in my opinion is an AH to trade witouth having to sweat and waste time in trade channels and worse (trading bots)

You don't have to trade through chat, just use the website? https://www.pathofexile.com/trade2

The website literally goes through chat and is infested with scammers.

It's not a good solution, in fact it's fucking cancer.

haha...

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1453R#7804 wrote:

What's funny to me is that most of the PoE1 diehards aren't even really complaining about the difficulty per se. They're complaining - endlessly, and miles beyond the point of absurdity - about not being able to blast. They want to clear the game at literal lightning speed, moving through maps/instances in thirty seconds or less, one-tap a pack

Maybe a few want to do that but some of us do not appreciate dying 2000 times to a boss to learn the mechanics and still fail it if you mistime a dodge roll by half a second. This is not fun.

A PoE1 map usually takes me 10-20 minutes. I am not an instablaster or top player by any means. But this is unplayable. You need to have perfect reflexes or , funnily enough , the kind of build you deride so much , which just deletes bosses otherwise you can't progress.

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Turddog#8292 wrote:

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We can absolutely zoom, just roll a deadeye and use lightning arrow. Its not rocket surgery.

The problem is literally every other spell and archetype feels awful, or if we do through the force of our own will and experimentation do find something that feels good to play we can expect it to be nuked from orbit. The problem is that the difficulty lays in the fact that basically every unique is offensively and defensively bereft and we're back to there being one singular chase unique and its headhunter again.

We literally have path of exile at home, it isn't in early access, we do not run the hazard of builds getting nuked from orbit with no notice when playing it, zones are a reasonable size, the uniques actually enable builds, stuff doesn't respawn unless you spawn the zone again. I didn't download an entire other game just to play lightning arrow deadeye.

Act 1 sucks pretty hard, act 2 sucks pretty hard, the ascendency stuff sounds awful. Yea, there is some good bones there but the new ninja turtles game has most of the same bones.

You are emotionally venting, and that's ok.

You're talking literal nonsense throughout the thread, and that's ok.

Your original post took a video, made a point that wasn't at all represented in the video, and presented it as "difficulty is here to stay boys!"

Needless to say; very little of what you say is worth reading.