Poe 2 - Analysis. Result of Professional deformation and degradation of game design?

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Rabarbar_Lichy#7553 wrote:

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

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Rabarbar_Lichy#7553 wrote:

By crew I meant the "make PoE 2 into 1" crew

The devs made this so you utilise multiple skills, play tactical, dodge, pay attention, react. Opposite to what number approach usually devolves into, 1 skill 1 click spam. Can you respect or appreciate that? No you have to come and demand and ruin for devs and players. Don't worry they might fail anyway, it's very hard to do what they try and easily broken, you're not helping though that's for sure.

Post is in feedback, devs will or will not read, their game design degraded and is deformed because you say so.

Yes it was pseudo scientific, same arguments like 100s made before just overblown and pretentious, also cheap claims of positivity to pretend that you care somehow and this is constructive feedback.

PoE 1 still there, with some advantages, imo like music, theme, world, more freedom in building and yes zoom if you need that. I will play it again 100%, go do the same and save the pseudo merit wishlists for yourself.

You are using the classic approach of dismissing my arguments as if I didn't really say anything. But I did. All of the things you listed are possible in the game, given what I want. Moreover, they were in PoE 1 - in PoE 1 you couldn't beat some bosses without knowing the tactics, especially in the leagues they came out in. Uber bosses were unbeatable for many even after a while, despite the possibility of getting absurd power in the game. However, there was also the need to build your own build. The connection between "math" and "watch for attacks, dodge, execute strategy like in WoW" is what I think PoE 2 has lost so far, and it worries me now. I know it can be fixed.

That's why I never said the game was doomed, but as an active player I can't stay silent either. And yeah, if I didn't care, I wouldn't have written this post, and you wouldn't have responded to it. People who don't care don't do that.

Nah I'm not going through that wall of text just to prove you wrong, someone did it here already anyway. Rather go play PoE 2 asap, and yes, PoE 1 had moments like that, and I actually love that type of dash around the deadly floors gameplay, but in the end 90% of it was the game to play when watching a show or sth, dumb and uninvolved. Now you're just supposed to focus and fight all the time not once per act or map.

Also if PoE 2 turned out to be PoE 1 with better graphics and QoL improvements, I'd accept instead of trying to impose my vision on devs on what I think modern arpgs should be. Not to mention, what's wrong with 2 different arpgs next to each other, idk.

You all ditch 2 and go play 1, if numerical is king you will prove that in 2 weeks. But no, better to sit around and try to bend the game clearly intended to be something else, because I know better.

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

You're right, but you're missing the point. The fun isn't running around the map and blowing things up with nukes - the fun is figuring out how to do it, and achieving it. The game is so deep that it allows you to do it, and it's never been easy. It's never been done in a day - you need weeks of deliberate play, studying other people's mechanics and builds, knowing tactics, strategies, interacting with crafting and trading to achieve "god status", because the base design of the game allowed it.

Is that the case in PoE 2? At the moment, it seems not, but that could change.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

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AksCabal#7814 wrote:

+1

@OP - Do not listen to the fans of POE Ruthless version running amuck everywhere to defend the current state of game.

Good post and some good points. After playing continuously since EA launch can relate to a lot of it if not everything.

I was especially curious about your point of the developers making a game they like or a game that they would like us to play vis-a-vis what players want to play. But it seems there are a few who like the current state of game as well so maybe GGG wants to target them and build something that they would like us to play. You also made a great point about understanding the depth and breadth of POE system vis-a-vis a more mechanical expertise required to play the current version.

Frankly I don't mind either, but you are right we do spend a considerable time on this and in return the least I ask is to have fun which is subjective.

However, a slow game, silly movement skills, lack of build diversity, some of the issues you pointed out has just taken the excitement and steam out; I don't want to even talk about the trials which is a saga on its own :)--a poster went as far as likening it to cancer. Perhaps time to do other stuff and come back later to check if POE 2 is still the ruthless version or some fun is allowed.

Even the new mechanical themes are just too clunky and silly. Wanted to try something new with the crossbow--MY GOD who came up with a brilliantly stupid idea of reloading bolts, then delay in shooting ...by the time you are done with that you are dead.

Hindsight shouldn't have bought early access but hey GGG did make a great game in POE 1 so no regrets, but no POE 2 is not the amazing/fabulous/.... game that some ruthless fanboys would want us to believe.

It's funny as it seems GGG is desperately trying to justify a vast end game by making the playstyle slow + clunky and map layouts long + complex.

Peace....

The emphasis on "Ruthless fanboys" in this post and many, many, many others like it is truly telling, methinks.

The OG PoE1 crowd - your Classic ARPG, numbers-trump-everything diehards - see a game they cannot (yet) trivialize through instant overgearing and consider it a fundamental failure. They cannot out-numbers the content to the point where they can safely and reliably ignore it and cease engaging with it, and to them this represents a betrayal of the core idea of what constitutes an ARPG.

If you have to engage with the game because your build doesn't put up ignore-the-game numbers, you suck. If you like engaging with the game, you're a loser nerd who shouldn't be playing ARPGs. if the game forces you to engage with the game by not allowing you to obtain ignore-the-game numbers, the game sucks.

This is a position which is intrinsically incompatible with the stated goal of PoE2, which the development team has repeatedly given as a merging of the engaging, visceral combat of successful action games with the customization and buildcrafting of PoE2.

PoE2 is not a 'failure'. It is simply not designed to accommodate the people who want to cast fifty thousand spells a second, each one of which deals enough damage to kill Uber Maven three times over. Path of Exile 2 is a game which insists you sit down and play Path of Exile 2, rather than POE1 which states that you can log on, enter a map, and navigate a pixel through a minimap while the rest of your screen is obscured by a neverending nuclear explosion.

If you love and cherish that mode of gameplay, then PoE1 is right there. Next door. If you want a game where you get to do cool custom build ideas but also where you fight enemies in a splendid action game, PoE2 will be there for you once the EA kinks have been worked out.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

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AksCabal#7814 wrote:

+1

@OP - Do not listen to the fans of POE Ruthless version running amuck everywhere to defend the current state of game.

Good post and some good points. After playing continuously since EA launch can relate to a lot of it if not everything.

I was especially curious about your point of the developers making a game they like or a game that they would like us to play vis-a-vis what players want to play. But it seems there are a few who like the current state of game as well so maybe GGG wants to target them and build something that they would like us to play. You also made a great point about understanding the depth and breadth of POE system vis-a-vis a more mechanical expertise required to play the current version.

Frankly I don't mind either, but you are right we do spend a considerable time on this and in return the least I ask is to have fun which is subjective.

However, a slow game, silly movement skills, lack of build diversity, some of the issues you pointed out has just taken the excitement and steam out; I don't want to even talk about the trials which is a saga on its own :)--a poster went as far as likening it to cancer. Perhaps time to do other stuff and come back later to check if POE 2 is still the ruthless version or some fun is allowed.

Even the new mechanical themes are just too clunky and silly. Wanted to try something new with the crossbow--MY GOD who came up with a brilliantly stupid idea of reloading bolts, then delay in shooting ...by the time you are done with that you are dead.

Hindsight shouldn't have bought early access but hey GGG did make a great game in POE 1 so no regrets, but no POE 2 is not the amazing/fabulous/.... game that some ruthless fanboys would want us to believe.

It's funny as it seems GGG is desperately trying to justify a vast end game by making the playstyle slow + clunky and map layouts long + complex.

Peace....

The emphasis on "Ruthless fanboys" in this post and many, many, many others like it is truly telling, methinks.

The OG PoE1 crowd - your Classic ARPG, numbers-trump-everything diehards - see a game they cannot (yet) trivialize through instant overgearing and consider it a fundamental failure. They cannot out-numbers the content to the point where they can safely and reliably ignore it and cease engaging with it, and to them this represents a betrayal of the core idea of what constitutes an ARPG.

If you have to engage with the game because your build doesn't put up ignore-the-game numbers, you suck. If you like engaging with the game, you're a loser nerd who shouldn't be playing ARPGs. if the game forces you to engage with the game by not allowing you to obtain ignore-the-game numbers, the game sucks.

This is a position which is intrinsically incompatible with the stated goal of PoE2, which the development team has repeatedly given as a merging of the engaging, visceral combat of successful action games with the customization and buildcrafting of PoE2.

PoE2 is not a 'failure'. It is simply not designed to accommodate the people who want to cast fifty thousand spells a second, each one of which deals enough damage to kill Uber Maven three times over. Path of Exile 2 is a game which insists you sit down and play Path of Exile 2, rather than POE1 which states that you can log on, enter a map, and navigate a pixel through a minimap while the rest of your screen is obscured by a neverending nuclear explosion.

If you love and cherish that mode of gameplay, then PoE1 is right there. Next door. If you want a game where you get to do cool custom build ideas but also where you fight enemies in a splendid action game, PoE2 will be there for you once the EA kinks have been worked out.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

You're right, but you're missing the point. The fun isn't running around the map and blowing things up with nukes - the fun is figuring out how to do it, and achieving it. The game is so deep that it allows you to do it, and it's never been easy. It's never been done in a day - you need weeks of deliberate play, studying other people's mechanics and builds, knowing tactics, strategies, interacting with crafting and trading to achieve "god status", because the base design of the game allowed it.

Is that the case in PoE 2? At the moment, it seems not, but that could change.

That game already exists.

What reason would Grinding Gear have to create a Path of Exile 2 that is nothing but a pale, squalid clone of Path of Exile 1? That is the part that continues to mystify and confound those of us who enjoy PoE2 for what it is. The folks for whom actually playing the game itself is secondary have their game.

You yourself said that actually running maps and playing the walking nuclear apocalypse you built "isn't the fun". The part where you're actually logged in and running the game is not "the fun". How is that not at least a little insane? Sure, there's always some element of enjoying the metagame around the game and filling time when you're trapped in the office with thoughtcraft around the game, but if this is true - if "the fun" has nothing to do with the actual game itself but merely in the assembling of ideas outside the game - why is 'the game' even necessary?

It's why so many players complain about 'Path of Building'-warriors. People who barely bother with the actual game of Path of Exile and have more hours in PoB than they do in PoE. I've got ~2400 hours logged on PoE1, but if I had some way of factoring in my PoB hours that number would be well higher. And I'm not even that big a PoB diehard.

The game that allows you to play it and win it without ever actually logging in and playing the client already exists. It already exists. And it will never be beaten. No game will ever come close to the level of absolute insanity PoE1 allows for.

So why not let this new game be for a different audience? An audience that once loved PoE1 as well, but was abandoned by GGG years ago and left to rot in the wake of chasing the Streamer Memers and ever-more-stupid numbers.

PoE2 isn't built for new players who hated POE1. Not solely/specifically, at any rate. It's built for people who used to love POE1 but simply can't care about its bloated, festering cancer-riddled corpse anymore. When a 100-divine build with 10M DPS and 500k EHP is considered a borderline-unplayable cheap budget failure of a build, your game has failed. It's time for a fresh start, to win back the people you left behind years and years ago.

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

Disclaimer - this post is not meant to be negative

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Result of Professional deformation and degradation of game design?