Listening to the whiners opened Pandora's box

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m00s3m4n#0316 wrote:

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Fae_Lyth#6750 wrote:

100%, but there is something more worrying I'd like to point out, and it's the fact that to me, it seems like they had no confidence in their product at all.
After all, after the slightest bit of "backlash" from a handful of people who immediately took to Reddit upon dying once, they immediately drastically changed the game in less than 3 days.

This is a very bad sign to me, and signals that any bit of complaining will lead to drastic changes. It deters me from getting attached.

Reasons why I think this should have kept to make camp 2 happy over camp 1:

1. This was released like that initially, meaning this was their initial vision. This is a huge factor. Would I have minded it if it was released like a loot extravaganza initially? No. Reasons, see above.

2. PoE 1 already exists. Camp 1 has a game they can play. Camp 2 was promised one, only for it to be turned into a second PoE 1. This is disappointing.

3. Variety is a good thing. Some days I want a hot dog, other days I want a burger. Now we have 2x hot dog. Guess I'll get burger elsewhere.

4. If you turn PoE 2 into PoE 1, then PoE 1 becomes obsolete, as both compete with each other.

Good post, however you seem to forget some things in my honest opinion.

Generally:
A. PoE2 is by it's definition not a souls game (at least that's not how they define themselves), it is built to be repeatable farmable etc. While I like high stakes in a game, put that in uber-bosses and the like, it does not belong in a campaign that needs to have replayability. One could also argue early maps.

B. Too many a times people got killed by nicely telegraphed attacks due to 360 no scope tracking, when they stood clearly behind the boss and it decided to track the player till the last second.
If you want the stakes to be this high, then build dodge rolling in a way where it actually provides invul frames (see Guild Wars 2).

C. Bricking builds sucks, eventhough I was not directly affected by this yet. It feels shitty if a patch bricked your build and you don't have gold to do a respect because you used it to get good bases to upgrade as an example. This then literally leaves your char dead in the water. And the solution here cannot be to just start over with a different build (see difficulty of campaign which makes another playthrough, specifically for the stated reasons, not really fun for most of us.

Now for the loot:
1. I 100% agree that drops in PoE1 are not meaningful and that this is better in PoE2, however if you're starved for loot and or currency and have to over level zones because either the currency you have does not roll the appropriate mods or you don't get currency and drops at all, that's not a good look. It feels like the game holding you back artificially, which is not fun.
Example: Player A & B have both the same mechanical skill but player A has been extremely lucky with his drops and got things like a 3 damage mod weapon while the best that Player B did get was a blue 1 damage mod weapon because no currency and no drop luck, player A will objectively have a much more enjoyable experience with the difficulty of the content. All while Player B basically has one of his hands tied to his back artificially

So if you want to go that rough you need to do away with randomness of drops or crafting outcomes. That or drastically increase drops/currency so that we actually can craft and get past spells of randomness.

2. Agree with this mostly.

3. Yes, but lets assume for a second PoE1 represents pizza and PoE2 represents pasta. Now imagine for a second the restaurant would pour ketchup on your Pasta and call it Spaghetti Napoletana, would that be a good level of variety?

4. Agree, they should be different, but I think they also should be both enjoyable. On my end I love the game, but looking at for instance the Act 2 endboss, where it just tracks so hard with its attacks and most of it insta gibs or severely junks you and you have situations where you can't get out, because 4 attacks happen at the same time. All the while you can't even see the boss animations because it's blocked by the health bar while the arena forces you to stand there because of gales, lightning rods and fire portals, that is objectively not good design.

I mean if PoE2 wants to be a souls game that's fine I respect it, but then be a souls game and get rid of the casino like randomness of drops and loot. You can't have it both ways.

Also if you want it to just be a ruthless type ARPG that's fine too but then don't be surprised that the majority of the player base might not enjoy that and leaves (hence my first suggestion to bury higher difficulty in specific bosses).

Looking forward to see your feedback and thanks for taking the time to read my more or less coherent thoughts ;)

EDIT: Typos

"

S0rada#0980 wrote:

"

m00s3m4n#0316 wrote:

"

Fae_Lyth#6750 wrote:

100%, but there is something more worrying I'd like to point out, and it's the fact that to me, it seems like they had no confidence in their product at all.
After all, after the slightest bit of "backlash" from a handful of people who immediately took to Reddit upon dying once, they immediately drastically changed the game in less than 3 days.

This is a very bad sign to me, and signals that any bit of complaining will lead to drastic changes. It deters me from getting attached.

Reasons why I think this should have kept to make camp 2 happy over camp 1:

1. This was released like that initially, meaning this was their initial vision. This is a huge factor. Would I have minded it if it was released like a loot extravaganza initially? No. Reasons, see above.

2. PoE 1 already exists. Camp 1 has a game they can play. Camp 2 was promised one, only for it to be turned into a second PoE 1. This is disappointing.

3. Variety is a good thing. Some days I want a hot dog, other days I want a burger. Now we have 2x hot dog. Guess I'll get burger elsewhere.

4. If you turn PoE 2 into PoE 1, then PoE 1 becomes obsolete, as both compete with each other.

Good post, however you seem to forget some things in my honest opinion.

Generally:
A. PoE2 is by it's definition not a souls game (at least that's not how they define themselves), it is built to be repeatable farmable etc. While I like high stakes in a game, put that in uber-bosses and the like, it does not belong in a campaign that needs to have replayability. One could also argue early maps.

B. Too many a times people got killed by nicely telegraphed attacks due to 360 no scope tracking, when they stood clearly behind the boss and it decided to track the player till the last second.
If you want the stakes to be this high, then build dodge rolling in a way where it actually provides invul frames (see Guild Wars 2).

C. Bricking builds sucks, eventhough I was not directly affected by this yet. It feels shitty if a patch bricked your build and you don't have gold to do a respect because you used it to get good bases to upgrade as an example. This then literally leaves your char dead in the water. And the solution here cannot be to just start over with a different build (see difficulty of campaign which makes another playthrough, specifically for the stated reasons, not really fun for most of us.

Now for the loot:
1. I 100% agree that drops in PoE1 are not meaningful and that this is better in PoE2, however if you're starved for loot and or currency and have to over level zones because either the currency you have does not roll the appropriate mods or you don't get currency and drops at all, that's not a good look. It feels like the game holding you back artificially, which is not fun.
Example: Player A & B have both the same mechanical skill but player A has been extremely lucky with his drops and got things like a 3 damage mod weapon while the best that Player B did get was a blue 1 damage mod weapon because no currency and no drop luck, player A will objectively have a much more enjoyable experience with the difficulty of the content. All while Player B basically has one of his hands tied to his back artificially

So if you want to go that rough you need to do away with randomness of drops or crafting outcomes. That or drastically increase drops/currency so that we actually can craft and get past spells of randomness.

2. Agree with this mostly.

3. Yes, but lets assume for a second PoE1 represents pizza and PoE2 represents pasta. Now imagine for a second the restaurant would pour ketchup on your Pasta and call it Spaghetti Napoletana, would that be a good level of variety?

4. Agree, they should be different, but I think they also should be both enjoyable. On my end I love the game, but looking at for instance the Act 2 endboss, where it just tracks so hard with its attacks and most of it insta gibs or severely junks you and you have situations where you can't get out, because 4 attacks happen at the same time. All the while you can't even see the boss animations because it's blocked by the health bar while the arena forces you to stand there because of gales, lightning rods and fire portals, that is objectively not good design.

I mean if PoE2 wants to be a souls game that's fine I respect it, but then be a souls game and get rid of the casino like randomness of drops and loot. You can't have it both ways.

Also if you want it to just be a ruthless type ARPG that's fine too but then don't be surprised that the majority of the player base might not enjoy that and leaves (hence my first suggestion to bury higher difficulty in specific bosses).

Looking forward to see your feedback and thanks for taking the time to read my more or less coherent thoughts ;)

EDIT: Typos

+1 I agree with you.

I would just add three things:

1. that maps (all maps, endgame, story) are like a maze. And too big. I think D4 suffered from that as well due to size and backtracking partially. And for that they were ridiculed, GGG is no exception here.
2. Hitboxes & lightning. In some instances when I hover over enemy and fire a skill, while standing next to it it misses always. But if I move a tiny bit now it connects. I think even Kripparrian said that as well. And in some areas where there is a shadows some mobs are invisible. You just stuck and see that you are hit like WTF. If you go out of shadow then you see a mob speeding to you or is already attached to you.
3. Rare mobs are on steroids regarding their movement speed in most cases. In some cases they catch up to you regardless of what your speed is. And then its GG most of the time.

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Fae_Lyth#6750 wrote:

Rare mobs die in few seconds, just like bosses.
What more do you want.

I don't know what Kripparian said or didn't say.
I make my analysis based on my experiences, rather than parroting other content creators without even playing the game myself.

I can't talk about maps, I'm busy rerolling characters for the campaign I'm enjoying.

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S0rada#0980 wrote:

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Fae_Lyth#6750 wrote:

Rare mobs die in few seconds, just like bosses.
What more do you want.

I don't know what Kripparian said or didn't say.
I make my analysis based on my experiences, rather than parroting other content creators without even playing the game myself.

I can't talk about maps, I'm busy rerolling characters for the campaign I'm enjoying.

First of all - my notes & comments, were from my experience. I provided a well known and respected streamer who has way more knowledge then you and me about this game - as example. That even top tier players are facing same issues, who are not afraid to tell that this EA has some issues. Its not some "random people thoughts / complains"

Second of all - How can you speak about endgame and its drops, loot, balance, scale when you have not played maps? Here are your words: "I can't talk about maps". Biggest part of any ARPG is endgame not story. If you like story then sure play it. But real problems are noticed in endgame. And this is where most people have issue about. Since they are comparing this iteration of endgame to POE 1.

Reach red or high yellow maps and clear then 95% - 100% on first try in under a 2-5 minutes with normal juice, then speak about "rare mobs die in few seconds, just like bosses"

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SerialF#4835 wrote:

plays minion build wich is the archetype that seems to be the most busted

complains the game is too easy.

classic.


play sorc dude.

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_ArchaicSEAL_#1781 wrote:

I had one rare piece finally fall at level 7 or so and was overjoyed when it dropped and was a good fit for my build.

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_ArchaicSEAL_#1781 wrote:

I am enjoying the difficulty of the game and, to me, the drop rates are fine. I was hoping that PoE2 would be more challenging than PoE and it has been. I don’t want to go around like in PoE pressing 3 buttons and wiping out a screen of mobs and getting spammed with great loot like it’s free candy. If I feel like playing something like that, then, uhm, I will load up PoE.

I was hoping GGG would not listen to the people bitching about PoE2 not being another PoE but it seems they are caving in. Too bad. I am really enjoying the difficulty and difference in game play between the two. PoE2 even feels just a tiny little bit darksouls-like in difficulty which is great!

As for the loot drops, I like how it is, I had one rare piece finally fall at level 7 or so and was overjoyed when it dropped and was a good fit for my build. I don’t want the PoE drop rates… I want to feel excited when a yellow drops instead of just looking at it as I do in PoE where it’s: “oh look another rare again…” If I want that, I load up PoE. I want to see something good drop and feel excitement again and not like I am getting spammed with high quality drops constantly and have to sift through it all for an hour to see what’s what after a map run.

However, GGG, if you are going to hard nerf skills and such you need to give us a way to clear our passive tree cheaply (or freely) so we can respec instead of being stuck unable to afford it and have a bricked character and need to restart. It’s not cool, nor fun. You want us to test different builds and push the build system then give us free respec tokens or something when you nerf hammer us.

Also, for the love of… whatever, give each class a mobility skill ffs. I miss teleporting around quickly. You have a hammer jump skill but i don’t want to be a spell caster that has to wield hammers in secondary weapon slots so i can jump around for quicker mobility. Give each class a mobility skill of some form to speed things up a little more.

Other than that, the game is great fun and the difficulty of game play is perfect. Nice and challenging, no 3 key spam gameplay, excitement when some good loot finally drops, mostly fun boss fights (some need tweaking though). We just need better mobility because running around is slooooooooow and the areas can are much larger than PoE. Oh and that honor based ascendancy, good god get rid of it or change it massively.