10% XP loss Death Penalty Feedback!

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

I'm also invoker and have 79 deaths at level 91, currently farming T17/T18 and almost all of my deaths happened before level 80. haven't died once since 85.

If you haven't died in seven levels the game is seriously broken and needs to be rebalanced. Either you are playing an extremely busted build or the game has gone beyond easy to almost journalist mode.

At that point we may as well stick the waystones into a pachinko machine and have it spit out the rewards. That would be more exciting and engaging than maps where you never die.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

I'm also invoker and have 79 deaths at level 91, currently farming T17/T18 and almost all of my deaths happened before level 80. haven't died once since 85.

If you haven't died in seven levels the game is seriously broken and needs to be rebalanced. Either you are playing an extremely busted build or the game has gone beyond easy to almost journalist mode.

At that point we may as well stick the waystones into a pachinko machine and have it spit out the rewards. That would be more exciting and engaging than maps where you never die.

no? I'm simply playing a good build, though I haven't really seen anyone else use crossbows on invoker, and I have good gear (roughly 50 divs investement atm)

why should I be dying if I'm playing with an optimized build? hardcore would be pointless if death was inevitable

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

If you haven't died in seven levels the game is seriously broken and needs to be rebalanced. Either you are playing an extremely busted build or the game has gone beyond easy to almost journalist mode.

At that point we may as well stick the waystones into a pachinko machine and have it spit out the rewards. That would be more exciting and engaging than maps where you never die.

Honestly, I don't believe half the stuff that they write on the forums.

When you realize what type of person you're dealing with. Aka, one that Ego identifies with the mechanic. You also realize that players with high Ego's, will also willingly lie, and make shit up. Just to make their point have more weight.

Maybe he hasn't died in 7 levels. Good for him. But it's not proof that the mechanic isn't a bad one. But when you start adding in 'I haven't died for 7 levels'. It's just there to make his claim sound better. Superior. And gets a teeny tiny ego boost from it.

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

why should I be dying if I'm playing with an optimized build? hardcore would be pointless if death was inevitable

Because the game should be demanding a level of skill and execution that normal players will fail at from time to time.

If your optimized build is carrying you through the content, then the content is too easy. In a challenging game, a normal player should expect a death every four to five maps or so.

Hardcore should be an extreme challenge once you've mastered all the bosses with their mechanics (each one of which should take multiple deaths to learn and master - and the devs plan on having 200) and all the possibilities in the maps. Most attempts should fail long before level 95.

Hardcore should be like a Rogue-Like (SSF) or Rogue-Lite, where you do run after run just trying to see how far you can get and resetting fairly often. Getting to the top should be a massive achievement that only the elite few ever accomplish.

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

no? I'm simply playing a good build, though I haven't really seen anyone else use crossbows on invoker, and I have good gear (roughly 50 divs investement atm)

why should I be dying if I'm playing with an optimized build? hardcore would be pointless if death was inevitable

If a game isn't challenging you, and you aren't at risk for dying.

Then the game needs to be made harder. Apparently XP loss on death isn't enough. We need to add in some really difficult mechanics. I keep being told by players that challenging mechanics that really punish a player are good for the game. So I think we should adopt more. There's no reason someone should be going 7 levels without a single death unless they're just not being challenged enough.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

why should I be dying if I'm playing with an optimized build? hardcore would be pointless if death was inevitable

Because the game should be demanding a level of skill and execution that normal players will fail at from time to time.

If your optimized build is carrying you through the content, then the content is too easy. In a challenging game, a normal player should expect a death every four to five maps or so.

Hardcore should be an extreme challenge once you've mastered all the bosses with their mechanics (each one of which should take multiple deaths to learn and master - and the devs plan on having 200) and all the possibilities in the maps. Most attempts should fail long before level 95.

Hardcore should be like a Rogue-Like (SSF) or Rogue-Lite, where you do run after run just trying to see how far you can get and resetting fairly often. Getting to the top should be a massive achievement that only the elite few ever accomplish.

this isn't Elden Ring. 99% of the content has nothing to do with skill and is about stat check in mid to endgame scenarios

an optimized build with good gear should be able to breeze through endgame, that's the whole point of the game and the definition of power fantasy. this is why items like temporalis and headhunter exist, ggg wants players to obliterate the content after a certain power level. if an optimized build can't faceroll endgame content, then casual players can't even get close to running it, and investing in a high-end build would be pointless

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a normal player should expect a death every four to five maps or so

so a normal player shouldn't be able to get to anywhere above like level 94? why? any player with some knowledge and a good build should be able to hit 100 eventually, even if it takes some time

what's a normal player anyway? I have friends in early maps, who are absolute casuals that are new to the genre, and not even them are dying like every 5 maps

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

no? I'm simply playing a good build, though I haven't really seen anyone else use crossbows on invoker, and I have good gear (roughly 50 divs investement atm)

why should I be dying if I'm playing with an optimized build? hardcore would be pointless if death was inevitable

If a game isn't challenging you, and you aren't at risk for dying.

Then the game needs to be made harder. Apparently XP loss on death isn't enough. We need to add in some really difficult mechanics. I keep being told by players that challenging mechanics that really punish a player are good for the game. So I think we should adopt more. There's no reason someone should be going 7 levels without a single death unless they're just not being challenged enough.

that is true, but how could the game challenge me when mapping is just stat check encounters over and over? I can one shot the monsters, but they can't one shot me, so how could they ever challenge me?

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

this isn't Elden Ring. 99% of the content has nothing to do with skill and is about stat check in mid to endgame scenarios

That is a problem. This game is supposed to be more skill based than Path of Exile. Hence the dodge rolls and movement skills.

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

an optimized build with good gear should be able to breeze through endgame, that's the whole point of the game and the definition of power fantasy.

At that point, you're playing an idle game or Vampire Survivors. You have Path of Exile for that.
This game can be for the players that want a challenge.

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

So a normal player shouldn't be able to get to anywhere above like level 94?

If you took away the XP penalty, they probably could.

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

what's a normal player anyway?

Someone who isn't part of the top 1% after playing thousands of hours.
All of the non-elite players.

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

I have friends in early maps, who are absolute casuals that are new to the genre, and not even them are dying like every 5 maps

That's because the game is too easy and lacks challenge.

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

that is true, but how could the game challenge me when mapping is just stat check encounters over and over? I can one shot the monsters, but they can't one shot me, so how could they ever challenge me?

Take a bit of time and think it through. You're ALMOST there. You almost understand the point I, along with many other players, are trying to make about XP loss on Death.



The game, needs more challenge. Now, do we do that with a XP loss on death mechanic?

Or do we do that, by asking GGG to put effort into making the game challenging.

It's very clear that with a decent build, you can basically zoom through most of the game without worrying about the mechanic. So it's not adding the value that you keep claiming it does.

The funny thing is. I agree. I want the game to be more challenging. Significantly more. I don't think XP loss on death is helping the game do that though. It just frustrates players. People don't like losing time in games.


You even said what the issue was yourself. The game is about stat checking. And when you make a game around that, it isn't challenging. So they add in mechanics like XP loss on death, to make it 'feel' harder. It's not actually hard though. And in most cases, it just ends up back firing and having people frustrated.

To the veterans: Being able to circumvent the punishment to affect you, doesn't make the punishment right. Punishment leads to stop experimenting and to use builds in the exact way the game expects it. This is a big dead end for accessibility.

Its okay not to be able to hit lvl 100. Your build is done anyways. The last 10 passive points, while beneficial to your build, arent going to be the reason why it has success, or fails. Right now its hard to hit 100. If you make it easy enough for any build to reach simply by banging your head against the wall long enough, then you remove any sense of accomplishment that comes with it, which is essentially all the last 10 levels are...your ability to play the game while dying as little as possible. Losing XP really isnt that big of a deal when you really put it into perspective. Your build on the tree is finished, you did it!

Grind for the Loot/Currency and try to take down the pinnacle bosses! Its okay if some people cant close out those last 10 levels. They aren't necessary.