To everyone who ever argued "melee is fine"

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ampdecay wrote:

My initial reactions where "this is a nerf" and it probably will be, I dont think all the defense stuff will make up for lack of totems. But the totems where just too strong so I get it.

Melee totems carried WAY harder in PoB than they did in the actual game.

Also the relative value of a more multi and increased attack speed which are both ubiquitous scaling opportunities compared to obtaining much higher base dmg needs to enter into this.

There are lots of more multipliers and lots of attack speed increases and the ones you got from totems probably had 70% up time if you were diligent and 30% or 40% if like me you were always noticing that the damn things were dead or expired again.

The only people who had 100% more damage from totems were people who only play PoB.

NGL the mana shit and all the ancillary changes worry me. No idea how Warcries fair but I fuckin hate them anyway so I'll build around.

Personally I'm almost certainly doing a blood magic Glad bleed build because the mana changes are senseless and bleed glad is my old flame build.

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alhazred70 wrote:

NGL the mana shit and all the ancillary changes worry me. No idea how Warcries fair but I fuckin hate them anyway so I'll build around.

Personally I'm almost certainly doing a blood magic Glad bleed build because the mana changes are senseless and bleed glad is my old flame build.

I love bleed glad as well, but do you see other options to my other thread?
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3531827

Defensively, left/bottom side melee will still be very far from "fine" in 3.2.5, unless you plan to stack 10+ endurance charges on every melee build, since they still didn't give you reliable non-gear spell suppression. A lot of "I'm going melee in mapping and bossing bro" people will quickly get a rude awakening that little has changed and will go back to their ranged/caster/totem builds.

As for the mana cost reduction nodes in the melee passive areas, this is a great example of "creating Y to fix X instead of removing X in the first place", in which X is the continued mana cost issues of melee skills. It makes sense given the forum's attitude to "fixing" the game, like people saying "give us more options for spell suppression". No, the correct solution is to remove spell suppression and adjust the remaining defensive layers.

BTW, they also nerfed jugg, the one left/bottom side ascendancy that people consistently said "I gotta go jugg so I don't die instantly bro." Well, where did GGG compensate for this nerf with ascendancy defensive buffs to jugg or others? I don't see any.

Does the concept of a straight giant defensive buff just seem too abstract of an idea for GGG? Do they like wasting time undoing one change by implementing another? Patches like this give the impression that POE1 is meant to die soon to make way for POE2 engagement.

attribute stacking has been too powerful for way too long, its kind of getting ridiculous at this point how long thats been going on. how often do you see ivory tower and energy blades in setups doing 4x the damage of most alternative build methods for a given skill? wanders using int scaling? str stacking, dex stacking...

my issue is its a gimmick and its been a boring gimmick for so long now. poe is game of gimmicks to some extent, thats the fun of such a mess of mechanics. but its generally so far ahead of a 'normal' method of get normal weapon, get inc speed and inc damage, get crit chance + multi, stack a normal bit of flat, use a dps flask and a dps aura = oh i got literally 50x less damage than an attribute stacker?

sigh.


how do the devs expect anyone to learn how to play the game now days when all the normal basic functions of how shit works are absolutely trash and all the effectiveness is hidden behind the most convoluted mongrel chain of unintuitive niche gimmicks?

back in 2013 you could actually learn how to make your own builds reasonably easy because it was stack increased damage, increased speed, increased life = oh ok my build works and maybe its 25% as effective as a really minmaxed thing but i can live with that. now those people do 300k damage and the blasters do 300 million by stacking 57 charges like a christmas tree, a total damage conversion 1500 attribute and every bit of gear is covered in really bizarre mechanics you would need to spend hours on a wiki to fully grasp.




my general opinion is that poe is just an unfixable mess at this point and maybe it should stay that way for those that like spending their 20th league in a row int stacking, just fix it in poe2. but they seem to be determined to keep pushing massive changes so maybe this stuff will keep getting addressed over time?

with the actual op tho...





the mana cost is slightly offset by the reduced attack speed but it does raise concerns for sure. have to see it in practice.


i dont think attack speed is entirely gutted, and a lot of builds were not using berserk or protector, many were using warchief.


we got about 75% more damage on the skill, 30% more damage from rage and 20% more damage from quality. those being separate multipliers equate to about 173% more damage all together? and then you add a tincture but remove a dps flask? i guess?

thats a lot, but the nerfs to flat and attack speed etc are also a lot. it seems to be like a fairly significant net buff for a lot of melee builds but id need to mess in pob with the trees to actually have a proper opinion.





im happy, i think its good. melee wasnt as bad as people said for a long time but its just been getting worse and worse to the point now where i dont even play it anymore. neon is a top guy, he knows the game better than any of us, he knows whats up and hes taking massive risks doing a huge shakeup like this. credit to him, and im sure when further tweaks need made they will make them.

tincture requires lots of free mana buffer to not turn it off in the worst possible moment. so tinctures are out - esp given where tincture passives are

mana is serious problem

12 base mana cost equals to 50(!) per swing with 140, 140, 130, 130 and 120% cost multipliers

5 base - 19

benchcrafts affect final value, not base value, so that 50 turns into 36 with two rings. compared to 5(!) currently

in short - prepare to drop a reservation (surprise, one less %rmr passive in melee aura cluster, surprise surprise!)

this mana change is very serious nerf, people downplay it but it seriously stings and there are only two solutions:
- lifetap (so ~30% more -> 19% more, aka nerf)
- 5+ passives (aka nerf)


for a patch that supposedly was to make melee a 'reasonable choice' - these surprising changes keep piling up

i have a serious question - elemental based marauder. no access to generic mana leech - is the Lifetap way the expected solution? seriously?

Mana cost is 100% what i most think they've made a mistake on, I will however just lifetap it so fundamentally I see it as a slight damage nerf to offset the other buffs rather than a dealbreaker.

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sidtherat wrote:

i have a serious question - elemental based marauder. no access to generic mana leech - is the Lifetap way the expected solution? seriously?

It's not like you have no access. You can get it via anoint, by pathing to the duelyst area or via cluster jewels. There is also the life mastery that replaces part of the mana cost with life cost instead so you might be able to push down the mana cost to a point where regular regen/recoup can do the job. There also unconventional options like devouring diadem you can use.

One big thing that hasn't been addressed though is vaal pact. In it's new form allocating it means you get zero life recovery of any kind the moment you stop attacking. Having to move while affected by degen? Gz you're dead now. It's also still bound by the leech restriction of only recovering 10% per hit. Coupled with the fact that your average build will now hit 4-5 times per sec rather than 10+ times that means it's still going to take quite long to refill. And the worst part of it, this change completely killed Mahuxotl for casters, escpecially pathfinders, and made it significantly worse for melee builds since the pseudo overleech is now pointless. Honestly can't see myself using vaalpact/mahuxotl anywhere outside of something like Moltenstrike where you don't do melee damage exclusively.

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sidtherat wrote:

in short - prepare to drop a reservation

well our banners are free so we got a bit of reservation back, ive been playing with the beta tree on a cyclone character and it started with 49 free mana, it went up to 109 without the banner cost and then i removed all my reservation nodes and i still had 59 mana, its got 381 mana per sec from leech apparently as i have mana leech on my amulet? i have the skills cost life instead of 15% of mana cause it made my leapslam infinitely sustain i think, this guy was a lab runner.

i dunno, my cyclone is 0 cost atm but itll probably cost a little when the change comes in. im sure hes fine.



im not sure everyone will be fine tho, we will have to see. a little leech goes a long way its just making sure you have the buffer for it.