To everyone who ever argued "melee is fine"

"

alhazred70 wrote:

The premis is not that melee is perfect, its that if melee was "fine" why did they just nearly double dmg effect of tons of melee skills based on testing?

Because they removed the totem buffs that equaled roughly 100% more total dps? Like, it doesn't require any testing whatsoever to realize that if you want to remove those totem buffs and not get a community meltdown you HAVE to buff the gem base numbers by ALOT just to compensate. You really need to start thinking for yourself rather than just taking everything streamers and GGG tell you at face value without a thought. Them saying they tested a lot doesn't mean they actually did that and it means even less that the result of that is great. The only credit i am willing to give them here is that they didn't actually go for the community meltdown version. I was fully expecting them to.

You also VASTLY underestimate the importance of aps in this game and how massively the nerfs to it will hurt. Even assuming equal dps, higher aps is ALWAYS better then less because 1) it feels better 2) it's safer since you spend less time standing still and 3) it scales any on hit effect your build uses including but not limited to impale, leech, loh and rage. We now have almost no means of scaling aps aside from multistrike, any melee skill with 70% base on a two hander is going to feel beyond horrible outside of zerker even if their DPS ends up being the same. Those changes didn't make "slow attacking builds" better, they didn't remove any of the issues those builds had afterall. Berserk no longer providing less damage taken is in fact a defensive nerf. They also nerfed defiance of destiny, eternal damnation and phys taken as across the board. All they do is forcing all of us to play inferior builds going forward.

Sid's point above is also a big issue. These patch notes are a MASSIVE boon to str stacking compared to regular scaling. Flat damage removal hurts weapon based builds twice compared to str stackers who get their flat damage elsewhere and with all that flat damage the higher base on all gems makes the gap between weapon scaling and stat stacking even wider.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

Esubane wrote:

melee sucks in most ARPG's.

Uh...no? Melee is mostly fine (as in it can handle most of the endgame content sufficiently if not optimally) in:

...

Melee hasn't been fine in PoE *ever*. It's just been varying degrees of not-suck-compared-to-ranged.

__

PS Melee is fine

Spoiler

In Elden Ring, Sekiro, Stranger of Paradise, Nioh, For Honor...Final Fantasy VII Re, Soul Calibur, Tekken, Street fighter...Vagrant Story, Dragon's Crown, Cyberpunk 2077, Final fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, Warframe...

You are applying two different metrics there. In other games melee is fine if it can do all content (which it can in POE as well) but in POE it sucks because it's worse than ranged (which is the case with it in all those games you mentioned as well). You'll have to pick one and stick with it otherwise you aren't making any sense.

I think some skills that needed it got its deserved damage effectivity buff.
Not needing to place any totems but still come out with better damage is a big plus.

Other skills like lightning strike which barely got compensation or Shield Throw/Shield Crush will severely lack behind in numbers.

So it depends which skill we looking at. Im quite hyped for Glacial Hammer on a Twohand weapon without strength stacking. Its an exotic build and multiple times inferior than str stacking but with the quality change on weapons my estimate is that i roughly come out with a 75% more damage than before after totems and berserk taken into comsiderations which means i can sacrifice some dps for more defensives and have the same dps as before.

Now for people that used two totems, totems buff anoint, Berserk and Shield Crush it feels a bit like a kick in the nuts as they are undercompensated by the patch notes.

I think Attribute stacking needs a general overhaul in that regard. It should not be better in every scenario by multiple times compared to a 3* T1 prefix dmg weapon and gear that supports the weapon.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Just do the math if you can. But let me guess, you can't? Gotta wait for Ben then to tell you what to think as usual.

Paint me as a Ben simp if you want to I did in fact just listen to his VOD.

Gee I wonder why you want to make it seem like bringing up an expert opinion is somehow bad? maybe because it doesn't gibe with your narrative? Nah can't be that.

I guess in some peoples eyes anyone who listens to actual expert knowledge is contemptible, its funny though I have nothing but respect for people who listen to more knowledgeable people in preference to their own head cannon.

Do the math?

How much does EQ gain from 79% improved dmg effect when it had no gem flat dmg to delete and isn't a speed scaling skill (if you're not stuck in 2016 using reduced duration support LOL)?

Do you really need me to do math on that? I can whip the damage calculation out of the notpad file on my desktop if you want but it seems kind of pointless.

Oh and for EQ bleed (an old favorite) Bleed didn't get Warchief buffs and had no use for Protector BTW also now doesn't need ensnaring arrow swap.

Same deal with Groundslam BTW, and many others, no flat dmg to delete (IIRC) and 356% up from 188% Also the best (least negative) attack speed multiplier of the slams.

net losses for sure.

What about GH? 622% damage effectiveness, lost some flat cold on a skill that is phys conversion that usually scales with melee phys increases. I'm sure that unscaled flat cold is going to lower the 356% buff my only question would be if the amount its lowered is to the left or right of a decimal in an actual build?

Okay okay its actually probably a double digit number when you subtract the melee totems occasional buff that you no longer have and didn't have that often before they removed them either because the totem died a lot and also got ignored a lot. We'll also ignore that 3 link, and panopticon anoint that were just freed up as if those 100% up time things are less important than your PoB tooltip 100% more multi from totems.

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

PS Melee is fine

Spoiler

Final fantasy XIV,

It's not a bad thing to consider "an experts" opinion. But you should pay some attention from which "perspective" that expert is looking at things. Most of Bens "issues" with melee are literally irrelevant if you don't play SSFHC races/gauntlets. And it just stands out that you are going "ben said" "Alkaizer said" and "GGG said" in just about every post you seem to make. That's how it feels to me anyway i don't have a written statistic on it.

Good job on picking that one skill that had nothing to lose on attack speed and flat damage. It still isn't 79% increase because even EQ benefited from Warchief which is gone now. Same with Ground Slam.

I'll give you GH, that's actually one of the skills that i think got a net buff but there are just as many that got net nerfs and since i personally value APS highly i think we got an overall loss powerwise. No longer needing totems does compensate for that in the overall picture though so i am fine with the changes.

bleed and ignite with new buffs, and much higher base dmg are on the table, not nerfed by attack speed, and didn't benenfit from totems (or not nearly enough to be worth slotting the totems in).

I bring up experts who people know because I'm just a dude on a forum with an opinion. If I happen to know that an expert player shares it, well I'd be a dumbass not to mention it. And I'm secure enough to tank the parroting comments because I know what those really are.

You know who also listens to and talks about Ben and Alk's opinions? tons of POE streamers who everyone knows.

And no I don't agree that HC players opinions about skills are any less valuable to regular players. Not everyone playing POE is a 6 portals because I paid for all six enjoyer.

"the one"?

There's actually a bunch of melee skills that had no flat already. Also there's quite a few that only have elemental flat and most of those are physical conversion.

Ice crash
IB
Groundslam
FB
Static strike
Sunder
Heavy Strike
Blade Storm (maybe it had flat I'm hazy rn and can't be arsed to go look but its buff looks very meaty in any case) BTW Ben was suggesting blade storm with 4 storms down might be the highest melee DPS in the game after buff... doesn't scale with speed either. There I go parroting my BFF Ben again lol.

and thats what caught my eye and without going back to the patch notes off the top of my head.

Cyclone shockwave

impale buffs only glanced at these but seems buffed

like 30% more flat life on each gear piece

block

Glads 100% more on bosses

WTFF

Bleed especially now that you dont need ensnaring arrow (bow swap melee build lol).

Its gonna be wild. Bleed is def on the table this league for melee, eyeing impale as well and they did A LOT with overwhelm phys reduc.


Honestly not sure what people are on about in this thread saying its not enough or any good. Especially talking about bleed, makes no sense at all.

My initial reactions where "this is a nerf" and it probably will be, I dont think all the defense stuff will make up for lack of totems. But the totems where just too strong so I get it.

Again, i was talking about melee as a whole. Not 2 specific archetypes or skills aka ignite/bleed. Yeah those got buffs but it's not going to be even remotely enough.

I can very much disagree with Ben without contradicting him so you bringing him up all the time isn't really hurting my headcanon, all it does is you devaluing yourself because you appear as a parrot rather than a human.

Ben is playing HCSSF races/gaunlets and views things from that perspective. Much higher difficulty of content, much more competitive in nature, higher requirement for defenses and less accessibility of weapons and gear which hurts weapon based skills much more than gem based skills.
Him saying melee is lacking for that can be perfectly accurate while not concerning me and 99% of the community at all who play SC trade where a t16 viable weapon is like 5c on day 2.
That has nothing to do with HC players opinions being worth less, they have a lot of value for other HC players. It just means their opinions don't apply to people who don't play HC, like me.

You say other streamers listen to him as well but a few pages back you said that many other streamers also considered melee to be "fine". So we have one expert saying A and several experts saying B. Which one is it now?

"

Most streamers have been on the melee is fine bus for YEARS except Ben, and sometimes Alk for the last few leagues. But hey maybe we should listen to you instead of Ben right?

after checking the new tree:

it is dumpster fire, not a radical buff.


i do not remember archmage casters (that were NOT nerfed in ANY way this patch btw) needing to spec into 3 separate mechanics (rage, banner, warcry) and play quicktime events every 4 seconds (retaliation) just to function. no, they just stack int and mana. Kitava's Thirst is more or less 1 button gameplay and deals 10s of millions of dps on a laughable budget



alas so whats wrong with passives?

they are designed to 'fix' the underperforming baseline effect (warcries have ~3sec base duration now, aka - they are noob traps). while caster stuff is there to make 'ok' baseline better.

every melee mechanic - banners, warcries, retaliation - is crap without spending 8-10 passives EACH to 'fix' it. and requires following investments to make them actually worth it

while, at the same time, ggg balances melee's top end assuming people have it all. and defences, and baseline damage etc. you cannot fit this into 100 passives, there is no way



and my pet peeve - mana costs of melee skills. it is artificially created 'problem' with 8 passive solution tax slammed onto it. oh, if you are elemental melee marauder - get rekt :)

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you guys, all of you, seriously underestimate the mana massacre of 3.25 that fell on melee players. this is huge, huge deal

every fucking melee mechanic has shit like this - artificial problem that needs fixing.

it is not about making something better anymore, it is about making it usable for a hefty price. most melee mechanics have negative starting power that you need to spend several passives to actually make their presence felt. banner without any passives is just garbage buff with LONG cooldown. totems at least worked out of the box and were expendable
melee has been so since closed beta and this trend is depressing