We are likely never gonna be as powerful as in Crucible.

"

Phrazz wrote:

As you like to pull the word "majority" out of your behind here, I could do the same; "the majority" of players liked Harvest because it gave them easy access to immense power.

That's big coming from you after that "many many players" line you pulled just one post prior to mine.
Maybe most players liked harvest because of the power, so what? The only reason people even bother with trade, nevermind liking it, is because of the EASY power it provides is it not?
I still haven't heard a single reason from any of the economy worshippers why super easy mode and absurd power via (horribly implemented) trade is the best thing ever but any kind of power gained without trade is the devil and must be purged?

Like honestly, what are you even arguing against here? I don't want to take your precious trade away, i don't want to replace it, i just want an alternative to it in whatever form that may be. I don't want crafting for power creep or the game getting easier. You yourself say that trade needs to be improved drastically yet you jump at me because i dare ask for an alternative?
I could ask for proper trade implementation instead, i.e an AH but i don't really want to start that discussion again and i'd consider that solution more of a bandaid anyway.
I wouldn't mind the economy that much if it didn't prevent me from actually playing the game. I think proper crafting is better than an AH bandaid but hey, beggars can't be choosers, i'd take anything at this point.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

However I do feel mostly confident in saying that average players do not spend 20-40 div per gear slot during the amount of time they do play each league.

We would be talking about hundreds of divs per build, and...

I feel comfortable in that too, glad we agree. Luckily, that was never a claim in the first place.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

That's big coming from you after that "many many players" line you pulled just one post prior to mine.
Maybe most players liked harvest because of the power, so what? The only reason people even bother with trade, nevermind liking it, is because of the EASY power it provides is it not?
I still haven't heard a single reason from any of the economy worshippers why super easy mode and absurd power via (horribly implemented) trade is the best thing ever but any kind of power gained without trade is the devil and must be purged?

Like honestly, what are you even arguing against here? I don't want to take your precious trade away, i don't want to replace it, i just want an alternative to it in whatever form that may be. I don't want crafting for power creep or the game getting easier. You yourself say that trade needs to be improved drastically yet you jump at me because i dare ask for an alternative?
I could ask for proper trade implementation instead, i.e an AH but i don't really want to start that discussion again and i'd consider that solution more of a bandaid anyway.
I wouldn't mind the economy that much if it didn't prevent me from actually playing the game. I think proper crafting is better than an AH bandaid but hey, beggars can't be choosers, i'd take anything at this point.

Yes, I use "many" because that's what I know. The moment I start pulling words like "majority" out of my behind, is the moment my argument turns to shit, because that would be a direct lie, as I have no idea about the majority. I really suspect you don't either.

It's not about what I deem "precious" or not, it's about the main pillars GGG have chosen for the game. They have gone with trading and an economy, while 'most' other ARPGs have not. Diversity in the market. A solution for everyone.

I don't think deterministic crafting is "the devil" and I have never said I view trading as "precious". So please stop putting words in my mouth. What I have said, is that those two elements can't really go hand in hand in an RNG environment without turning gear acquisition into a joke - without serious limitations. I'm sure you can see this, you just don't care about "the rest", because you're just focusing on what YOU want to do.

That's why I speak about the limitations needed for these two elements to work together, because I DO actually care.

"

Yes, I use "many" because that's what I know.

No, you don't know, you know what you yourself want, that's pretty much it. And "many many players" likely didn't mean 2 you can go and ride on the wording here but you meant the same thing i did. Just replace "majority" with "a lot" or "many many players" in my post doesn't really matter to me. The statement is the same anyways.

"

What I have said, is that those two elements can't really go hand in hand in an RNG environment without turning gear acquisition into a joke

I've been saying multiple times from the very start that it should be limited, i even gave examples like separate mode with crafting/loot instead of trade, accbound crafting, increased rarity of crafts, limited number of crafting attempts i've mentioned 2 of those several times over the last page but you keep ignoring it and go on and on about the economy. So again, what exactly are you arguing against? I haven't been asking for a single one of the things you are arguing against.

If it's a separate mode and/or if the stuff is acc bound then the crafting wouldn't have an effect on the economy, it would be completely separate. I guess there is the possibility of nobody playing trade anymore once an alternative appears but since you are so sure that soooooo many people love trade and want it to stay a few people opting out of it shouldn't be a big deal right?

I honestly feel like i am getting strawmaned here and it's annoying as hell. I make an effort to explain what i am looking for and why and then you drag a one liner from my post out of context and proceed to argue against something i never said.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Again, screw the economy, honestly just fuck it.

You know this is like saying "screw classes in Skyrim", right? It's like giving the middle finger to one of the main pillars this game is built upon.

Skyrim doesn't have classes, sorry if someone gave you a light roasting for this already but I just had to cherry pick it as while I understood your point I found it pretty funny that you chose the series where you have literally no class distinction at all, in every elder scrolls game you are an all powerful chad who masters literally everything.

Hell in Morrowind if you were min/maxing to the degree we do in PoE you would pick your "class" based on what you were the shittest at because it gave you more stat growth opportunity, so being an Orc wizard gave you a much higher level cap than a high elf one because they were shit "wizards" :p

Do understand what Baharoth means about meaningful progression without trade too, most players that don't heavily engage with it have no idea how few players consume most of the resources even on a platform with as many players as SC.

The crafting requirements for many items is so high it can't be called meaningful progression when applied to somebody playing without trading, with Harvest it was OK but of course became overpowered when actually traded. Without trade you have crafting relying on resources you'll never get enough of independently.

Just to highlight my point here I made this solo in Sanctum , that took nearly every resource I made solo on a character that did 39 challenges and all the content. The rate of progression is simply glacial once you remove trade, trade > SSF for the regular pleb is similar to SSF > Ruthless its an absolute gutting until you know how to do it and even then it becomes extremely time intensive.

Now "Meaningful" progression is a goalpost that changes depending on what tier of player you are talking about and what level of grinding they think is acceptable, once it gets to "I will probably not upgrade this" I view that as the threshold for when meaningful progression is over.

The problem is that particular statement falls quite early on the spectrum if you include the power that trade provides, about the 2nd or 3rd item you put in a slot after reaching maps you probably won't upgrade for a very substantial length of time. Progression simply stops. If you are tight like me you try to do the endgame content anyway as a challenge but if you want more you pretty much have to go to trade to find anymore progression.

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

Skyrim doesn't have classes, sorry if someone gave you a light roasting for this already but I just had to cherry pick it as while I understood your point I found it pretty funny that you chose the series where you have literally no class distinction at all, in every elder scrolls game you are an all powerful chad who masters literally everything.

Yeah, 'classes' was probably a clunky use of words here; I was referring to races (and the RP'er in me will always look at them as classes). A sneaking, bow-using Nord? Get out of here; there's no such thing :P

And races ARE important in how the world reacts to you, and I find it essential, just like trading in PoE.

You just like that RP Phrazz! Not that I disagree my thieves were always filthy Khajit as was intended ^^

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

You just like that RP Phrazz! Not that I disagree my thieves were always filthy Khajit as was intended ^^

"Filthy" Khajiit? Khajiit have excellent hygiene, unlike filthy Nords who cannot be bothered to bathe, unless it is to swim in one of their icy rivers like a bear after salmon! ='[.]'=

"

Raycheetah wrote:

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

You just like that RP Phrazz! Not that I disagree my thieves were always filthy Khajit as was intended ^^

"Filthy" Khajiit? Khajiit have excellent hygiene, unlike filthy Nords who cannot be bothered to bathe, unless it is to swim in one of their icy rivers like a bear after salmon! ='[.]'=

Mer, more specifically Bosmer will always be my go-to en TES games, at least as my first playthrough. I hope Valenwood will be featured in a TES game in my lifetime, but rumors have it that TES6 will be centered around High Rock.

"

Phonglehoang wrote:

One of the easiest leagues to get 40/40 challenges XD

True.

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

"

SunL4D2 wrote:

I do hope they will introduce "unintended megacreep" later, but it's kinda copium. Unlikely to happen. We are going into the opposite direction.

You forget we were going in the opposite direction prior to Crucible too.

I think you guys drastically overestimate what the regular mapping player plays the game like btw, while you are right that said combination is pretty cheap to boost your BV you'd have to actually go read the modifier list to begin with to get there.

Its similar to pretending that in synthesis league everyone was running around with stacked as fuck implicits on all their gear, they weren't they were running around with extremely minor mods all over the show. You don't have to look any further than the crucible item posts here to see a hilarious mix of mirror tier modifiers and 5% sidegrades with very little in between.

As I said prior Vengeant cascade being in its current form will be a more significant power boost than Crucible just because of how easy it is to access for a huge amount of the common builds.

F for splitting steel again once its gone though, at least I got to play one league where it was viable for single target :p

That's incorrect comparision. Crucible got nothing on how rough synthesising items was.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. I think you guys just don't even realize anymore how much time you invest to get all the shit you have.

You say the game hands out currency like candy but getting 40 divines as raw currency is pretty much impossible for a normal player. Even with trade it's a lot of effort.
I've been farming Harvest and Expedition this league to see how it goes, Tujen didn't offer a single divine obviously all value to get there has been from trades.
Harvest is cool in that you can stack up on lifeforce and trade in bulk but with 4k yellow life force = 1 divine I'd have to farm 80k life force with maybe 500 yellow life force dropping on average per map with fully invested atlas tree.
That's a shit ton of maps to run for only 20 divines and that's only the minimum he mentioned for the crucible tree. You actually have to equip your character afterwards as well so we likely end up with like 200 divines investment overall assuming you don't go with "awesome weapon but shitty gear". Can't speak for others but i certainly don't feel like running the thousands of maps needed for that. Hell, even if i wanted i would end up with my wrists giving out long before i get there thanks to GGGs grandious "weight of items" bullshit.
All the power to you if you like it, but don't assume everyone ticks the same.

Did you not noticed or ignored my comment further clarifying what I mean earlier in the thread?

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Again Phrazz, i don't have any problem with people no lifing this game to scale to the moon. Each his own, i don't give a damn. You are beating a strawman here.

The only thing i commented on is that assumption that every player can/wants to play the same way and amount which is clearly not the case. It's just a 0,00001 percenter thinking he is the average player.

Yeah, I was talking more generally, based on the vibes I get from some of your posts in here.

I don't really think OP, a dude that always makes a "40/40 AMA" thread every league thinks he is "average", I just think he speaks from his perspective, which is fine.

And 20-40 divines a league is something A LOT of average players can do, at least over the duration of a league. If you play 2-3 weeks and then quit, it will - of course - be a lot harder. You have to WANT to make that kind of currency. And if you WANT it, you will learn how to do it. Just playing the game and "hope that 20 divines will drop" is of course not the way. Sometimes, I get the impression that some people think the "average player" is unable to seek information/knowledge.

I am not of opinion that "20-40 Div is cheap change" and I clarified what I meant earlier in the thread. You are second person to miss it / ignore it.

"

satanttin wrote:

Noice^^

first one as well or?

Yes! ^^

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

"

Phrazz wrote:

And 20-40 divines a league is something A LOT of average players can do, at least over the duration of a league

This is again a common misnomer, especially amongst the folks that frequent the forums, Reddit, or Twitch.

"A LOT" isn't really a lot. In fact it's quite small. Hell more than 80% of players don't even make it to maps, and the percentages drop into the low single figures for the Maven/Eatwr/Exarch categories. Let alone farming and currency acquisition over a period of time. Spending 20-40 div on a single gear slot? That's a tiny, fractional, segment of players.

It's like there is a suspension of belief that happens with PoE vets / elites, that they assume most everyone has their same experience. It's not even close statistically, and I suspect often times they really have no idea how the average player experiences PoE. I tend to say they are "out of touch" but that ruffles feathers. I don't know how else to explain it...they simply don't get it or refuse to listen. Like not even to try to understand, despite empirical evidence readily available.

Your whole argument falls apart if you just check how many accounts have Mageblod / Headhunter and other expensive items on poe.ninja. There are likely thousands of people who will indeed spend 20-40 Div on a "single piece of gear" like that. "Single piece of gear" is pretty disengious way to describe Crucible passive tree - it's something coming from League mechanic, something you will not see in the future, something people will want to get, basically centerpiece of the character, very meaningful piece of equipment - it's absolutely not the same as buying 40 Div Boots or Gloves. It makes sense that many more people will go for expensive Crucible tree compared to other slots.

"

SunL4D2 wrote:

That's incorrect comparision. Crucible got nothing on how rough synthesising items was.

No it isn't, Synthesizing items just required more farming you wouldn't work out either without data mining and a test group doing all the background work which is my point.

It also would have been about 1000x easier if you could split/imprint synth items which is another giant crutch propping up the entire system.

Sorry but its garbage and we will be more powerful in the future, especially the common pleb. I'm glad plenty of people enjoyed it though especially the endgame crafters they are gonna have some great mirror tier shit on standard for a bit.