Im so glad i played diablo 4 i wont ever talk down GGG

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hasatt0 wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

For QoL, the devil is in the details. For some people, automated trading is the QoL they would like to see, but for others that is not something we want.

I've never understood the opposition to automated trading especially from 'normal' players. It only benefits the ones running extensive bot farms where everything is already automated. They're the only ones who will lose their monopoly over trading if trading becomes automated. I believe they're the most vocal in their opposition and have even gaslit the whole community into believing that automated trading is bad for everyone.

It's not just the people running extensive bot farms who stand to lose out it's everyone who can be bothered to use the trade system as it is. Those things people farm & sell in bulk to fund a build will be worth the square root of fuck all when absolutely everyone is trying to sell them because it doesn't take any time or effort to do it.

But passing on the good in search of the perfect isn't a great solution either.

An AH could be limited to currency and bulk item trades for example, and pair with NPC vendors to create floors/ceilings. It doesn't have to include gear or maybe you leave gear to the existing public tabs systems.

The need to provide players with reasonable options is out there. To pearl clutch over potential character progression issues, imo, doesn't make sense in today's PoE. It's not like players are gearing up from looting to begin with, it's mostly crafting (with a few unique items).

The economy while important, shouldn't handcuff QoL and a players experience. I guess unless they prefer hundreds of thousands use TFT for services there is clearly a demand for.

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RandallPOE wrote:

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hasatt0 wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

For QoL, the devil is in the details. For some people, automated trading is the QoL they would like to see, but for others that is not something we want.

I've never understood the opposition to automated trading especially from 'normal' players. It only benefits the ones running extensive bot farms where everything is already automated. They're the only ones who will lose their monopoly over trading if trading becomes automated. I believe they're the most vocal in their opposition and have even gaslit the whole community into believing that automated trading is bad for everyone.

It's not just the people running extensive bot farms who stand to lose out it's everyone who can be bothered to use the trade system as it is. Those things people farm & sell in bulk to fund a build will be worth the square root of fuck all when absolutely everyone is trying to sell them because it doesn't take any time or effort to do it.

There is absolutely zero proof that automated trading will result in what you mentioned.

On the other hand, we did have d3 running AH for a good amount of time and it had none of the problems you mentioned. D3 AH was shut down because of other reasons not related to the game.

The anti-AH brigade is now a religion without any foundation, when it comes to PoE, with very shady leaders.

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hasatt0 wrote:

There is absolutely zero proof that automated trading will result in what you mentioned.

The law of supply & demand is a thing and not really a very difficult concept to grasp. With an automated AH sure demand will increase, supply will go through the roof.

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hasatt0 wrote:

On the other hand, we did have d3 running AH for a good amount of time and it had none of the problems you mentioned. D3 AH was shut down because of other reasons not related to the game.

You could only buy gear on the D3 AH which isn't what I was talking about so not sure how that is relevant. It did however come with a whole raft of other problems though - if you think a small section of people have a monopoly on trade now you ain't seen nothing yet.

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RandallPOE wrote:

The law of supply & demand is a thing and not really a very difficult concept to grasp. With an automated AH sure demand will increase, supply will go through the roof.

Zero evidence on how an automated system will affect supply and demand. Seller and buyer are equally affected.

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You could only buy gear on the D3 AH which isn't what I was talking about so not sure how that is relevant. It did however come with a whole raft of other problems though - if you think a small section of people have a monopoly on trade now you ain't seen nothing yet.

You could sell items on D3 AH.

There will always be people having a monopoly on free trading whether the system is automated or not.

the thing is : diablo devs want to compete and copy POE but must stay in the range of "casual players" because all elite players from D2 are now on POE since the dramatic disaster named "diablo 3" and when u try to mix cold and hot water,u juste get temperd water ,wich doesnt please anyone.....

all players must understand that all blizzard's game are just cash grab now....

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xxxcobaltxxx wrote:

because all elite players from D2 are now on POE

Lol imagine actually worrying about where the elite D2 players from 20 years ago are, or went to.

The elite OG D2 players, for the most part, if they are still gaming, are part of the adult casual base, and...you guessed it, playing D4.

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hasatt0 wrote:

There is absolutely zero proof that automated trading will result in what you mentioned.

Proof? I knew lots of people running scripts to take advantage of the D3 AH. Hell, even streamers like Subtractem has talked about how he was scripting on the D3 AH. Just because you didn't/don't know about it, doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. A quick google search should help you out. If something is automated, a script can do everything for you. Sure, we have much of the same problems in PoE, but not to that extent.

There were several reasons why they scrapped the D3 AH. Players hating it is one of those reasons, because Diablo 3 (as most games with trading) was tuned around it (and yes, they have said so).

Now, even if there wasn't any "proof", and GGG suddenly decided to try it for a league or two - and it turned out players (or GGG) hate in PoE too, there's no going back. They went too far with Harvest, and had to dial it back a notch - and people still whine about it today. All the time.

Now, should they improve trading in PoE? Of-fucking-course. Should they move every trading mechanic into the game itself? Of-fucking-course. Should they add some sort of "accept/decline" mechanic so that you don't have to leave your map to accept or decline a trade? Yes. But they should, for the sake of everything you deem holy, keep the requirement of being online, and they should NOT make it automated.

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Phrazz wrote:

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hasatt0 wrote:

There is absolutely zero proof that automated trading will result in what you mentioned.

Proof? I knew lots of people running scripts to take advantage of the D3 AH. Hell, even streamers like Subtractem has talked about how he was scripting on the D3 AH. Just because you didn't/don't know about it, doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. A quick google search should help you out. If something is automated, a script can do everything for you. Sure, we have much of the same problems in PoE, but not to that extent.

The argument was that with an automated trading system (online or offline) the AH will result in the economy being flooded with mirror-tier items that can be bought almost free (for a few chaos?) and will crash the economy.

There is zero evidence for that and I put the example of D3 AH.

Whether people are running scripts or not with an automated or non-automated trading system, that's beside the point. It didn't crash the D3 economy by the way.

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Now, even if there wasn't any "proof", and GGG suddenly decided to try it for a league or two - and it turned out players (or GGG) hate in PoE too, there's no going back. They went too far with Harvest, and had to dial it back a notch - and people still whine about it today. All the time.

GGG doesn't care at all if people whine or not. Has forum whining ever affected GGG decisions? How many builds has GGG nerfed to the ground? Did people not whine about these nerfed builds? Did GGG ever care about such whining? Let's say GGG wants to incorporate an improved itemization system in PoE2 but wait, they shouldn't because they might have to tone it back because people will whine. I don't agree with this line of thinking.

A lot has been said about harvest already. I'll only say here that if you want to talk about Harvest, the so-called item editor, how come you're not up in arms against the actual item editor, which is the trade site?

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Now, should they improve trading in PoE? Of-fucking-course. Should they move every trading mechanic into the game itself? Of-fucking-course. Should they add some sort of "accept/decline" mechanic so that you don't have to leave your map to accept or decline a trade? Yes. But they should, for the sake of everything you deem holy, keep the requirement of being online, and they should NOT make it automated.

I can agree with you about improving trade (or adding QoL). I just don't put any limits on whether the trading system is automated or not or how much automation is there.

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There were several reasons why they scrapped the D3 AH. Players hating it is one of those reasons, because Diablo 3 (as most games with trading) was tuned around it (and yes, they have said so).

I quoted this last because you've just equated PoE and D3 and the number 1 reason why D3 was bad. Hint: It's not the AH.

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Phrazz wrote:

But they should, for the sake of everything you deem holy, keep the requirement of being online, and they should NOT make it automated.

Well thats your opinion, and you could at least say why. I know we have been through this before, but I won't put words in your mouth and tell you why I think what you think is a bad idea.

If a piece of gear sells for 20c when I'm offline, who cares?

If we already conduct the majority, not all, but the majority, of trades with another players trade bot (my experience), whats difference?

If crafting is already superior to looting, why would there be a different economic cost on the AH? Even if there were more listings (which help me understand this because they could set a 20 AH listing limit and have it below the unlimited amount via paywall there is now), the filtering only shows what the player wants to see anyways.

Even in SSF the gear progession is fucked because of how bad looting is. The best way is to level, then go to the Expedition vendor, get bases, and craft. I bring this up because it highlights that gear progession wouldn't get messed up by an AH, it's already messed up because you almost never loot your own upgrades.