It's time for GGG to take back reigns of trade for the sake of the game

"

Nubatron wrote:

They never lost control as you stated above. They made a decision to let their dream live within bounds of compromises that they were willing to make.

This entire thread is an altar to them compromising, but not so far that the game became D3 easy. Their compromise walks a very fine line between Ruthless and D3, and I personally hope they stay on that fine line. Ruthless is fun, but some of their choices were strange. The removal of movement skills as an example. That was just a straight subtraction from gameplay capabilities, when really, they should have limited the ceiling on how fast someone can move whether that be a hard cap or severe diminishing returns. But that's a mode that someone can choose to partake in to make the game harder; that's an important distinction because that doesn't affect the path of least resistance as I described above.

If they actually lost control, they would just bend to the will of the casuals in this thread since they will always represent the majority of players in any game

I'm not so sure about that tbh. PoE is much different now than it was 5 years ago, and a whole hell of alot different than 10.

Many of said changes seemed to have been moving away from the more hardcore aspects (like 6L, leveling, unique availability, gem supports, etc..)

It really does feel like they got to a point, and someone said(CW?), "ok enough is enough" and this arbitrary line in the sand was drawn. This absolutely isn't the players fault. Its developmental direction to drive revenue directly clashing with developmental ideals. That's how Ruthless was born imo, and any notion that wont bleed into the main game is wishful thinking.

And hell, maybe it should! Maybe PoE should be more hardcore, elite, no-life focused. That's fine, but then you cannot continue to market and drive for players that this wont appeal to. All it does it create toxicity and dissatisfaction amongst those average / casual folks compared to the more elite players.

It's not a good situation at all, and I think once a very large segment of these average / casual players have a next-gen, familiar, less hostile arpg, the comparisons and metrics, will be glaring.

"

Nulledout wrote:

"

Nubatron wrote:

You really should read it again if that's what you got from it. Keep reading it if you continue to think that was my point.

Let me help YOU understand what YOU wrote.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Part of the draw of these games is the rarity of things, and resistance to get those things. That draw is driven by several factors including finding the best way to get those things in the shortest amount of time possible -- meaning playing efficiently.

YOU need resistance in gaming to make it seem rewarding to YOU. It doesn't matter what others want, this is what YOU want.

"

Nubatron wrote:

When a mode trivializes that resistance and becomes the de facto baseline of the game because most people will choose the path of least resistance, the game loses some of the appeal.

YOU don't want the game to lose appeal to YOU, because others will pick the path of least resistance, which we already established is not what YOU want.

"

Nubatron wrote:

The easiest version of the game needs to be balanced around that chase to fill this niche for the players that like the chase and finding the easiest path to their version of what victory is.

This is what YOU believe the design should be. YOU need the chase, and YOU want to solve the puzzle.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Putting it another way, part of the appeal is finding the path of least resistance to the end state without artificially handicapping yourself.

Again, this is YOUR opinion. YOU think you need this in a game to enjoy it.

Have you figured it out yet? You do not want people to get easy items because you feel it would take away from YOUR experience. Plain and simple. You read like an open book. You want it a certain way, and others who don't can pound sand. The crazy ass part here is that it would be a completely different mode from what YOU play in, and you are still defiantly standing there like the chubby kid in the sandbox because someone doesn't want to play the way you think they should play.

It is ok to want to play the way you want, that is what gaming is about. It isn't ok to think your way is the only way to play, and try to gate keep others because you don't agree with how they play.

Let me help you out here since you seem to still manage to miss the point.

You're making this about me, when really, I made it about the game and what I believe the design philosophy of the game is and what a developer's job is. The developer wants the chase to be about items. The player base needs (and some want) the resistance to make that chase real. Part of that chase involves/necessitates finding the path of least resistance to get that item. This is where the developer comes in. Since the players will seek the path of least resistance, it is the developer's job to ensure that path of least resistance is right-sized. The right-sized resistance is dependent on the developer's goal for the game, not the players expectations. Since there are already games that provide dramatically less resistance, it's good that GGG makes only a path with more resistance.

The point to focus in on is that the players seek efficiency in completing goals; that is intrinsically part of the strategy (and fun) in a gear chasing game. The developer is responsible for setting that resistance, since the players will move to that path of least resistance. Creating a new mode with less resistance will become the de facto path of least resistance, and as a result, that's the path many will choose -- taking away from that feeling of chase as D3 did. The baseline of the game needs to be the path of least resistance because that's where many will migrate to because .....please pay attention to this point because it's vital to my point that you keep missing...players in a gear chasing game will seek the path of least resistance and playing an artificially difficult path when you know an easier path exists is contrary to seeking the path of least of resistance. This can be evidenced by some of the SSF players that believe that they deserve a better drop rate because they've forgone trading. They chose a harder path, but notably ask for a path of less resistance because one already exists.

Low resistance is already carved out in the market space. High resistance choice is very limited. Diablo 2 still exists but it's old and looking older by the day. Even D2R with a high polish still plays like an old game. That leaves POE alone in this space for new games actively providing updates.

To reiterate, the path of least resistance becomes the baseline mode for a game like this, and that will only happen when the developer envisions an easier game as the baseline mode. Do you think GGG will concede to a significantly easier game as the baseline mode?

"

Nulledout wrote:

"

RandallPOE wrote:

What new content?

This is a MASSIVE update for the season:
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/diablo3/23897180/season-28-rites-of-sanctuary-preview

Ctrl+F: "Altar of Rites"
Ctrl+F: "Primordial Ashes"

It's not new content, it's just buffs and an alternate way to obtain primal ancients which are already in the game. Size of the buffs aside it's nothing bigger than has been added every other season and considerably less than some seasons.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

I'm not so sure about that tbh. PoE is much different now than it was 5 years ago, and a whole hell of alot different than 10.

Many of said changes seemed to have been moving away from the more hardcore aspects (like 6L, leveling, unique availability, gem supports, etc..)

It really does feel like they got to a point, and someone said(CW?), "ok enough is enough" and this arbitrary line in the sand was drawn. This absolutely isn't the players fault. Its developmental direction to drive revenue directly clashing with developmental ideals. That's how Ruthless was born imo, and any notion that wont bleed into the main game is wishful thinking.

And hell, maybe it should! Maybe PoE should be more hardcore, elite, no-life focused. That's fine, but then you cannot continue to market and drive for players that this wont appeal to. All it does it create toxicity and dissatisfaction amongst those average / casual folks compared to the more elite players.

It's not a good situation at all, and I think once a very large segment of these average / casual players have a next-gen, familiar, less hostile arpg, the comparisons and metrics, will be glaring.

I don't agree with all of that, but I do agree with at some point someone said we've gone too far and pulled back (3.15). 3.13 was the too far, and 3.15 was the rightsizing from the perspective of how they envision the game.

They made a mistake with 3.13. And before all the 3.13 diehards throw shit at me, I'm speaking from the perspective of a developer who did not like how easy 3.13 was; at least that is my read on it.

I do agree with the pullback on 3.13 to be clear though. 3.13 was like a stim in drug terms. People loved the feeling of it, but long-term effects of abusing stims are bad -- a point that I deal with frequently with a family member. I believe the analog also applies to games. Short term elevated access to broken things felt great, but in the long term it would trivialize the game and lead to an outcome akin to the D3 exodus.

As for the revenue, of course they like any uptick in revenue, but they've not been very subtle about where they want the game to go in terms of difficulty since 3.15. Things did get very muddy before that, but I think they've been fairly consistent since then. They've overshot on difficulty at times and rightsized after releases, but nothing in the same solar system as 3.13 in terms of rollback. If that involves a drop in revenue, then they've clearly come to terms with that.

I'd agree with you Nubatron but 3.13 meant freedom to me rather than those juicin stims to get addicted to. I can absolutely see why some players would categorise it as that but for those of us that play experimentally rather than just copy pasta'ing somebody elses build 3.13 was peak PoE.

You could make anything work just about, so if you wanted to blast 36 challenges as heavy strike you only felt slightly worse than doing it as whatever fotm was currently prevalent.

We lost that in 3.15 and experimentation without PoB and sophisticated knowledge of in game scaling just leads to graveyard builds now. Players still want that juice though so on SC they choose the service that can provide it, aggregate trade.

In that regard the game has become a fairly ridiculous pyramid where a tiny portion of the playerbase use an immense amount of the resources. If pleb tier players stopped selling their rng for one league the entire system would break because frankly even players blasting don't have content occur fast enough to actually do sophisticated crafting with.

I don't like that, it functions and I can see why GGG would support it but for the regular player it is no different to 3.13 except your playtime is extended to do trading in lieu of personal progress.

Personally I think the success of this league strongly supports that 3.13 and leagues like it have the best staying power. Players like progress that is within their grasp and ways to get there. Mechanically this is a weak league but the rewards are very relevant to the rest of the game.

Lastly I will mention that if they were clear with where they wanted difficulty to go in 3.15 they failed spectacularly, we are pretty close to the game being as easy as its ever been with them having to artificially introduce fairly insane modifiers to content to generate any kind of challenge. Its harder on shit tier builds, but the very best builds are better than ever really.

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

I'd agree with you Nubatron but 3.13 meant freedom to me rather than those juicin stims to get addicted to. I can absolutely see why some players would categorise it as that but for those of us that play experimentally rather than just copy pasta'ing somebody elses build 3.13 was peak PoE.

You could make anything work just about, so if you wanted to blast 36 challenges as heavy strike you only felt slightly worse than doing it as whatever fotm was currently prevalent.

We lost that in 3.15 and experimentation without PoB and sophisticated knowledge of in game scaling just leads to graveyard builds now. Players still want that juice though so on SC they choose the service that can provide it, aggregate trade.

In that regard the game has become a fairly ridiculous pyramid where a tiny portion of the playerbase use an immense amount of the resources. If pleb tier players stopped selling their rng for one league the entire system would break because frankly even players blasting don't have content occur fast enough to actually do sophisticated crafting with.

I don't like that, it functions and I can see why GGG would support it but for the regular player it is no different to 3.13 except your playtime is extended to do trading in lieu of personal progress.

Personally I think the success of this league strongly supports that 3.13 and leagues like it have the best staying power. Players like progress that is within their grasp and ways to get there. Mechanically this is a weak league but the rewards are very relevant to the rest of the game.

Lastly I will mention that if they were clear with where they wanted difficulty to go in 3.15 they failed spectacularly, we are pretty close to the game being as easy as its ever been with them having to artificially introduce fairly insane modifiers to content to generate any kind of challenge. Its harder on shit tier builds, but the very best builds are better than ever really.

I agree with your thoughts about what was great about 3.13, I just don't agree that 3.13 was the best way to address that problem. The fix being power creep to the point where anything was viable no matter how ridiculous doesn't seem like the right answer unless you want the ceiling of gameplay to be ridiculous as well. There is no wrong answer for players, but there is clearly a right/wrong answer from the developer perspective. I think the right answer would be revisiting skills mechanically and in terms of raw damage.

Some skills are relics from a time long since forgotten. Those skills need a revisit and badly. Heavy Strike is a prime example. It came from a time when the gameplay was dramatically slower, both in terms of the player, monsters, bosses and progress. But I could abstract that point to most strike skills at this point. They feel slow, clunky and out of touch with the current pace of the game; with some notable exceptions of course.

"

Nubatron wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

I'm not so sure about that tbh. PoE is much different now than it was 5 years ago, and a whole hell of alot different than 10.

Many of said changes seemed to have been moving away from the more hardcore aspects (like 6L, leveling, unique availability, gem supports, etc..)

It really does feel like they got to a point, and someone said(CW?), "ok enough is enough" and this arbitrary line in the sand was drawn. This absolutely isn't the players fault. Its developmental direction to drive revenue directly clashing with developmental ideals. That's how Ruthless was born imo, and any notion that wont bleed into the main game is wishful thinking.

And hell, maybe it should! Maybe PoE should be more hardcore, elite, no-life focused. That's fine, but then you cannot continue to market and drive for players that this wont appeal to. All it does it create toxicity and dissatisfaction amongst those average / casual folks compared to the more elite players.

It's not a good situation at all, and I think once a very large segment of these average / casual players have a next-gen, familiar, less hostile arpg, the comparisons and metrics, will be glaring.

I don't agree with all of that, but I do agree with at some point someone said we've gone too far and pulled back (3.15). 3.13 was the too far, and 3.15 was the rightsizing from the perspective of how they envision the game.

They made a mistake with 3.13. And before all the 3.13 diehards throw shit at me, I'm speaking from the perspective of a developer who did not like how easy 3.13 was; at least that is my read on it.

I do agree with the pullback on 3.13 to be clear though. 3.13 was like a stim in drug terms. People loved the feeling of it, but long-term effects of abusing stims are bad -- a point that I deal with frequently with a family member. I believe the analog also applies to games. Short term elevated access to broken things felt great, but in the long term it would trivialize the game and lead to an outcome akin to the D3 exodus.

As for the revenue, of course they like any uptick in revenue, but they've not been very subtle about where they want the game to go in terms of difficulty since 3.15. Things did get very muddy before that, but I think they've been fairly consistent since then. They've overshot on difficulty at times and rightsized after releases, but nothing in the same solar system as 3.13 in terms of rollback. If that involves a drop in revenue, then they've clearly come to terms with that.

Consistency? I mean not really. We just finished up the absolute debacle of AN and loot goblins. We also had a significant nerf to looting with legaue mob bonuses gutted, only to try and compensate after nearly universal outcry.

I cannot say this is a function of too much shit going on with PoE2, and folks at GGG aren't gripping the PoE1 wheel as tight, or if it's a case where the Devs are just out of touch in general when it comes to the player experience. Or maybe it's simply reluctant development concession wise on things they don't even like.

I doubt it's one simple thing but a combination. Either way player experience, and community engagement is suffering. It's like two different worlds in PoE, separated by a chasm sized gulf from elite to average. All the while GGG pits these groups against each other.

An average player asks for QoL, accessibility, or options, and gets hit with all kinds of shit from "play somehting else, oh you want easy mode, this isnt candy crush, and more"

It's like cmon, is asking for better trade, an alternate leveling path than campaign, exp loss penalty removal, a fucking tooltip that's accurate, a PoB style planner and info, ect.. really that outlandish?

Ruthless mode totally ok. A Toothless mode? Well we cant have that, think of the children!

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

Consistency? I mean not really. We just finished up the absolute debacle of AN and loot goblins. We also had a significant nerf to looting with legaue mob bonuses gutted, only to try and compensate after nearly universal outcry.

I cannot say this is a function of too much shit going on with PoE2, and folks at GGG aren't gripping the PoE1 wheel as tight, or if it's a case where the Devs are just out of touch in general when it comes to the player experience. Or maybe it's simply reluctant development concession wise on things they don't even like.

I doubt it's one simple thing but a combination. Either way player experience, and community engagement is suffering. It's like two different worlds in PoE, separated by a chasm sized gulf from elite to average. All the while GGG pits these groups against each other.

An average player asks for QoL, accessibility, or options, and gets hit with all kinds of shit from "play somehting else, oh you want easy mode, this isnt candy crush, and more"

It's like cmon, is asking for better trade, an alternate leveling path than campaign, exp loss penalty removal, a fucking tooltip that's accurate, a PoB style planner and info, ect.. really that outlandish?

Ruthless mode totally ok. A Toothless mode? Well we cant have that, think of the children!

The devil is in the details. After 3.15, everyone was looking for reasons to be angry and vilify "the vision" at every turn. Archnemesis was the perfect target, because it was hard and didn't become easier until very late game. I won't take a position on Archnemesis other than to say they introduced it too early in the acts for sure. But the thing is, every time they introduced a new mod pool was broken as hell. Bloodlines was not even close to balanced, and I believe made archnemesis look like kiddy gloves. It took a while to ratchet bloodlines back; it took a while to right size archnemesis. The main difference is when it happened; more specifically it happened after POE inherited the D3 refugees in mass and when they were all angry at the vision. So it appeared worse. It wasn't. Bloodlines was worse. Frozen Sky mobs were almost instant death when it was first introduced as an example.

We could give the same analysis to Nemesis when it was released of course.

Anyway, I think the only difference between now and then is people are more actively searching for ways to be angry at anything hard so they can be angry at the vision and pretend that they were right.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Anyway, I think the only difference between now and then and is people are more actively searching for ways to be angry at anything hard so they can be angry at the vision and pretend that they were right.

Difference is that they sold out, and now are trying to scale back. Years of unchecked loot growth, alienating the community and now they want to take it back and pretend it never happened. Delirium was the catalyst, the massive jump of loot and power creep that they desperately want to take away but are doing in all the wrong ways.

Draegnarrr is right, without the massive support of trade, the 1% wouldn't be able to get shit done as well as they can now. Meanwhile, they are laughing their ass off when some people defend that the games needs to remain "hard", while getting everything they want week 1. I really would want to see those "experts" in SSF.

"

Z3RoNightMare wrote:

"

Nubatron wrote:

Anyway, I think the only difference between now and then and is people are more actively searching for ways to be angry at anything hard so they can be angry at the vision and pretend that they were right.

Difference is that they sold out, and now are trying to scale back. Years of unchecked loot growth, alienating the community and now they want to take it back and pretend it never happened. Delirium was the catalyst, the massive jump of loot and power creep that they desperately want to take away but are doing in all the wrong ways.

Draegnarrr is right, without the massive support of trade, the 1% wouldn't be able to get shit done as well as they can now. Meanwhile, they are laughing their ass off when some people defend that the games needs to remain "hard", while getting everything they want week 1. I really would want to see those "experts" in SSF.

So your argument is that GGG sold out when they made the game easier or scaled back some of the more difficult things? Did I read that correctly?