It seems like the time to remove the resist penalty and xp on death

"

Wladicorist1 wrote:

i like how people on those penalty threads want to tell me that "i am suppose" to like getting punished
which is "objectively" a bad thing (or im living in a universe where positive=negative).
and if i want that people arent getting punished which is objectively a good thing (because who likes to suffer??)
then its a "bad" idea???? how does that makes sense???

the penalty serve its purpose to a degree where i just want to uninstall the game. so explain to me how this is a good thing

You are missing a small step in your logic that is otherwise sound and solid. Trying to speak from a standard player's perspective, the game isn't punishing you for the sake of punishment, but rather tries to give you a wink that something is off, ESPECIALLY when you are doing it consecutively.

In theory, player death occurs because you goofed up, and this can be for a variety of reasons = Ran into something you shouldn't, swarmed by something you shouldn't, took a hit that you shouldn't, outdated gear (Either low DPS to handle it or low defences), played mods that counter your build, etc. Let's say you died to reflect in a map because you didn't read the map mods. The following scenario would in all likelyhood occur =

With death penalty = Upset that you lost progress for such a stupid mistake -> Proceed to check your maps more toroughly for dangerous mods / mod combinations -> never roll reflect on maps anymore -> learning has been taken place

Without death penalty = Upset that you died -> Check why you died -> Don't really care because it barely is an inconvenience -> More likely to repeat said mistake because it really doesn't matter.

The problem is that the game is horrible at conveying the message. It doesn't tell you what killed you (Attack? Spell? Element damage? Multiple small hits? Big chunk of a hit? Was I cursed by flammability and bursted down? Degen?), can be visually very overwhelming and thus HIDE what killed you (Ground effects, after death effects) or could be multiple sources and you can't tell what it might have been (Combination of map mods? Boss or minions?), which is where the frustration kicks in, and from that standpoint, yeah, death penalty absolutly feels like ANOTHER kick in the gut, because you want to prevent it, but you don't always know how you're supposed to do that.

You also aren't supposed to like getting punished. It's specificly there so you build your character in balance to avoid it, which is actually good game design, because it actively makes you learn the game (since, if you don't, you get rekt), but PoE's design to be actively made to kill you at every opportunity it comes across does make the whole process frustrating and, personally speaking, in strong need of reworking (This I speak from a guy who played 8.5k hours exclusively in HC, where death matters a lot, and created / deleted maybe over a thousand characters :D)

Hope this explaination helped !

"

Echothesis wrote:

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

That's false --- you can entirely be profitable doing purely low tier maps -- the issue is that certain drops are restricted based on content/level. My level 70 breachstone runs have been more profitable than my t14-t16 mapping this week, and that with doing multiple maps for every breachstone.

Afaik you can only farm currency on low tier, which is not that profitable.

The more you invest on juicing maps the more you dip into your "profits" to pay for it.

Mirrors can drop as low as act difficulty, not that finding one is a practical goal.

But profit is largely focused on earned income which in turn is used to fund better gear to improve said profits.

Let's take elder for example - the easiest boss that drops a watcher's. Despite it only being a two mod vs the uber's 3 mod, if you get two popular mods together the value can skyrocket. However, its not a guaranteed drop and even if it does a lot of the potential variants typically offer just one useful mod for a build if any at all. With the uber and 3 mod watcher, your chances of getting a nicer one do improve, but the cost of each fight is also much more expensive and unlike elder there's no guaranteed fragment for completion.

In other words, the less you have to spend can go a long way towards 'profit'. The harder the content and the more you juice, the more your drops have to recoup the losses in between.

Really the biggest drawback of the lower tier stuff is the boredom. I have a hard time avoiding content that I know can potentially kill my character.

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

Xp penalty does punish bad play. You even back that up by stating it removes weeks of play time --- so you aren't making a credible argument.

I have never heard "You can't have a life and still be good at PoE" stated more succinctly.

You either have unlimited free time to waste playing a video game, or you should shut up and go play something else.

Looking at player retention over the last few leagues, it seems people are finally taking your advice.

I think you are confusing liking to get punished with liking to get challenged.
Challenges have rewards, but frustration if you fail. It is different than punishment.

Problem is, PoE monster rng scaling gets so crazy that a combination of curses + mods can burst you down in 1 second or less. You can't get defences for all the things that the game throws at you.

You can't have extra max resist and reduced curse effect and reduced critical effect and high chance to evade and block and high phys and chaos mitigation and high hp/es regen unless you play a very, very specific buil + ascendancy. And then there is a chance your dps will be low.

You also can't manually avoid everything in the game so it is 70% about stats and 30% about skill.

Death penalty is not the problem. Terrible game balance is the problem.

Without poking the bears overly too much I want to speak generally about why I dislike the way penalties are handled in this game.

The penalties overly punish players who struggle while not touching players with the most currency. Problems that are solved by money aren't wholly a skill issue. I guess how much currency you need to feel safe is a skill issue. People who regularly use three portals dying are losing 30% xp. Now for some that seems proper, and that is a matter of opinion. Without talking about gear or build, I don't think that that design philosophy is appropriate. It seems predatory on a person's time for no obvious reason. The same goes for the resist penalty or the time limit in most league mechanics.

I keep my account private because account criticisms based on passive trees, items, or achievements/challenges ignores the point of a lot of posts. And, I don't use or want to use pob. Although players are very nice and tend to leave good advice about improvements.

Some believe that xp loss serves a purpose in either making players sense something is wrong or they need to learn more. Path of exile is terrible about communicating game mechanics to players. Understanding why you die in this game is difficult. Also, the game provides no tools to learn why you die. So what info can be gleaned from dying other than don't click that map or that league mechanic, don't play that skill or these defense types. Pretty soon this penalty may tell someone to avoid touching most of the game. Hell players don't even know what type of damage killed them. If the devs want their penalty to communicate anything than they should have it do so. All we get is a message saying resurrect at town or at the checkpoint.

Once my build feels mostly complete, I have a hard time reproducing what killed me. So I chalk it up to some unlucky damage roll or something and move on. I rarely learn anything or gain any understanding on what stat I need to boost.

I think GGG has it just because they needed players to not cap their levels in beta when they were no chase items or whatever. Now level 100 really isn't that hard to get too, it takes a lot of time even without dying.

Honestly a manifesto on this would be interesting.

Theirs allready is a maniefested here, wich is acordingly to Chris-vision. PoE is higy adanced pro tradeing turbo capitulazion game, not a casualized sozialization one.You eficient trade tft profesonaly craftification, and litrlly 5-6 ex earnmenting is easy for knolledgaebele plyer.

It is basick phylology make it so that having chalenged makes plyer want to become actuly progamer, not handhending them with 'rewading' but eficienly marketizated pathofbuding optimizated. I can litrlly defaultack ANY unoptimizated buding, it has no lyerd defeces, no overcupped residuances,no speling supresion,no reduced physicated damagezation. It is clealy too much entitelmentness if we want esymode, as buding is beter then ever.

"

vmt80 wrote:

Theirs allready is a maniefested here, wich is acordingly to Chris-vision. PoE is higy adanced pro tradeing turbo capitulazion game, not a casualized sozialization one.You eficient trade tft profesonaly craftification, and litrlly 5-6 ex earnmenting is easy for knolledgaebele plyer.

It is basick phylology make it so that having chalenged makes plyer want to become actuly progamer, not handhending them with 'rewading' but eficienly marketizated pathofbuding optimizated. I can litrlly defaultack ANY unoptimizated buding, it has no lyerd defeces, no overcupped residuances,no speling supresion,no reduced physicated damagezation. It is clealy too much entitelmentness if we want esymode, as buding is beter then ever.

Man, thanks for clearing this out, finally understood that I confused the download buttons 1.5 years ago :)

Downloaded PoE, but PoB is the actual game we have all signed to play here, with PoE being just a rookie graphical sandbox plugin for PoB players, and pretty buggy one at that. How could I possibly expect any success without engaging in higy adanced pro tradeing turbo capitulazion with eficient trade tft profesonaly craftification:)

What is up with all these posts with weird grammar? That's some dead internet stuff.

I don't really mind an XP penalty like this in games, but the game in general doesn't seem to promote avoiding dying otherwise (besides HC). A lot of mechanics and such seem to rely on bursty damage, or high risk (Heist).

Some of the bursty stuff can be hard to see. At one point I was fighting a pack that pretty much every mob had a different AN modifier. There's not enough time to hover over all the mobs and notice there's actually a Deadeye or Steel-Infused in there. It's not clear to me what is the purpose of this approach, as it seems there's no reason to make it hard for the player to understand what they're fighting.

I'd rather address that than the XP penalty. Damage is super jumpy atm. Makes combat very movement focused. Shoot move shoot move. Would be nice if it was more fluid, strategic, and less... crazy.

"

Revenchule wrote:

What is up with all these posts with weird grammar? That's some dead internet stuff.

I don't really mind an XP penalty like this in games, but the game in general doesn't seem to promote avoiding dying otherwise (besides HC). A lot of mechanics and such seem to rely on bursty damage, or high risk (Heist).

Some of the bursty stuff can be hard to see. At one point I was fighting a pack that pretty much every mob had a different AN modifier. There's not enough time to hover over all the mobs and notice there's actually a Deadeye or Steel-Infused in there. It's not clear to me what is the purpose of this approach, as it seems there's no reason to make it hard for the player to understand what they're fighting.

I'd rather address that than the XP penalty. Damage is super jumpy atm. Makes combat very movement focused. Shoot move shoot move. Would be nice if it was more fluid, strategic, and less... crazy.

Yep, that would perfectly work, but the donkey is stubborn. GGG is unlikely to revert stuff they had just added, despite lots of structured and reasonable negative feedback, don't even want to guess human reasoning behind that.

Same as with current performance issue patch 3.18.1c: instead of just reverting it for now (they can use version control, right?) and re-implement later, they tell players to wait and suffer until they fix it on the fly.

At least exp penalty is "old enough" so they could adjust it without admitting they may have made a mistake, RNG forbid that...

"

Obright wrote:

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

Xp penalty does punish bad play. You even back that up by stating it removes weeks of play time --- so you aren't making a credible argument.

I have never heard "You can't have a life and still be good at PoE" stated more succinctly.

You either have unlimited free time to waste playing a video game, or you should shut up and go play something else.

Looking at player retention over the last few leagues, it seems people are finally taking your advice.

It really depends on what you define as "good". I've got two 40/40 and several 36+ but as far as the PoE economy goes I'm pretty poor.

A loot based hack n slash rpg is ultimately like a slot machine. You invest a little or a lot and hope to get more back in return. And yes, time is one of the things you invest besides currency.

As I did play D2, I recall the pain of what it was like to hit 100 in that game and for most it simply wasn't worth the effort for a few more skill points. But if you did hit 100, you either put in the time and effort to earn it, or cheated by using a bot. However, as those bots also led leveling baal runs, they often facilitated the leveling of new characters for others.

Unlike D2, we can't quite get rushed through act bosses so easily. There are no free baal run like runs to get easy levels for just joining. But hitting 100 in PoE also doesn't restrict you to needing to run the exact same area over and over again either.

Xp penalty on death is a very basic mechanic. Sure it can be frustrating but it does serve a purpose.

The biggest reason I firmly believe in the value of it is my experiences in games without it, especially in MMOs. Take away the penalty and people get extra lazy. People don't bother learning and just complain, and in turn drown out the complaints that do have merit.

With PoE - its not the penalty that's at fault.

Just look at Sentinel start - as someone who did 40/40 archnem I'd say I had decent experience with the overall mechanic. I would have never thought to integrate it into the core game the way it was implemented because I saw how certain mod combinations could utterly disable a build. There were times I had to switch between two different characters because mechanically there was no way to kill the spawned archnem monster given its attributes and the map mods for the character I was on.

The lack of league retention is more likely a reflection of the game getting harder and much more restrictive. Things people enjoy playing can get obliterated because of a random rare with certain archnem mods. Meeting minimum dps thresholds gets harder as so much gets nerfed with buffs few and farther between.

Do I think the game is making it too easy for characters to die? Damn straight. I'm feeling the need to aura stack on just about anything I play to the point increased mana reservation efficiency is now standard.

But its not the penalty at the root cause. Removing it would make hitting 100 meaningless and only sweep the real issues under the rug. Hopefully the hard numbers and population decline will push the game in a different direction.