Get rid of the xp loss

"

Shadeless01 wrote:

I will try some of the advice, thank you! The mods i always pay attention to, well mostly, sometimes i overlook a bad mod..

Problem is the damage v defense, you advice to that i should drop some damage, but right now my damage all-ready feels barely sufficient.

I will try the glancing blows thing, see if it helps, and see if i can drop some of the damage, i need some awakening gems i guess to make up for it, which i have not gotten as a drop yet, i wonder if they actually exist :S

Well we all overlook mods every now and then buts thats clearly not the games fault, is it? ^^

How comes your dmg doesnt feel sufficient?
Im running a minion build with really shitty gear in SSF right now. No clusters at all, defensive anoint and lower level than your guy - Im still clearing T13s on a 5l at a reasonable pace. Granted Im rerolling maps with silly mods my shitty build cant handle.

Maybe thats the issue here. Id rather pay a chaos or scour + alch and keep my XP than running silly maps.

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Sabranic_SilverDeth wrote:

"

Userbla wrote:

Remove that survivability requirement and it becomes almost meaningless, and any glass-cannon trash could achieve it.

Not only that - it would become the ideal way to achieve it.

Not the point. The point is that without the experience point penalty level 100 would not be the chase goal that it is today.

No one is arguing that there should be no no death penalty. Depending on what a replacement death penalty was would define what reaching level 100 means under the new death penalty.

I really doubt GGG will change the death penalty though. they love the current level 100 chase goal and could be concerned about players getting upset if that was changed.

"

Turtledove wrote:

Not the point. The point is that without the experience point penalty level 100 would not be the chase goal that it is today.

No one is arguing that there should be no no death penalty. Depending on what a replacement death penalty was would define what reaching level 100 means under the new death penalty.

I really doubt GGG will change the death penalty though. they love the current level 100 chase goal and could be concerned about players getting upset if that was changed.

Every replacement I've seen is just a silly head-trick to somehow obfuscate the loss. It's the equivalent of:

"Hold my hand and lie to me GGG, I got the sads."

That's really silly. Dying should feel bad. You failed. The game developer's job is to create adversity that you must overcome. For their to be adversity, the game MUST have the power to punish.

Dying needs to hurt.



Absent meaningful failure, there is no challenge.

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Sabranic_SilverDeth wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

Not the point. The point is that without the experience point penalty level 100 would not be the chase goal that it is today.

No one is arguing that there should be no no death penalty. Depending on what a replacement death penalty was would define what reaching level 100 means under the new death penalty.

I really doubt GGG will change the death penalty though. they love the current level 100 chase goal and could be concerned about players getting upset if that was changed.

Every replacement I've seen is just a silly head-trick to somehow obfuscate the loss. It's the equivalent of:

"Hold my hand and lie to me GGG, I got the sads."

That's really silly. Dying should feel bad. You failed. The game developer's job is to create adversity that you must overcome. For their to be adversity, the game MUST have the power to punish.

Dying needs to hurt.



Absent meaningful failure, there is no challenge.

Okay I accept that challenge. I propose that whenever one's character dies then the character is deleted along with all items equipped and the whole account is locked for 24 hours. That is on softcore. In hardcore in addition a finger would have to be amputated. That would really punish any character death. Dying should feel really bad.

So is that just a "head trick"? If not then you can't claim that anymore. :-)

I've asked this quite a lot, to get rid of the XP loss on death.

Players do get punished (a lot) even without the xp loss on death.

1. On maps, temple, boss fights and safehouses you lose a portal. (and time)
2. In Delve you lose sulphite and sometimes your loot.
3. In Heist you lose the contract/wing and your loot (after the alarm).

Although quite silly systems if you ask me, I understand the punishment part.

What is not correct is that I can lose exp/progress from time invested last week or earlier that week/day.

A correct way would be to lose the exp gained in that map/instance after opening/entering instead of the flat 5 and 10%. -> even if it exceeds 10%

I also wonder why GGG still keeps it around:
1. Despite players' complaints
2. Reduced/nerfed power, making end game a lot harder for a lot of builds.
3. (b)locking skill points behind an insane time-consuming grind.
4. 90% of the player base not even having a max level (100) character.

My highest level ever was 97, and I didn't even bother trying to reach LVL 100 because of the exp penalty; one death is like 2 weeks of my time at that point... Not really the most enjoyable experience!

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Turtledove wrote:

Okay I accept that challenge. I propose that whenever one's character dies then the character is deleted along with all items equipped and the whole account is locked for 24 hours. That is on softcore. In hardcore in addition a finger would have to be amputated. That would really punish any character death. Dying should feel really bad.

So is that just a "head trick"? If not then you can't claim that anymore. :-)

LOL. Reductio ad absurdum is a fallacy.

"

FutureFear wrote:

I also wonder why GGG still keeps it around:
1. Despite players' complaints
2. Reduced/nerfed power, making end game a lot harder for a lot of builds.
3. (b)locking skill points behind an insane time-consuming grind.
4. 90% of the player base not even having a max level (100) character.

1: Players complain about literally every single system in this game. Complaints do not make it bad.

2: Your build is your choice. You have the freedom to pursue what you find most fun, or what is most optimal for a given task. Choice is good. Complaining about the consequences of said choice is silly.

3: 95 is easy to get for most builds. Those last five skill points will not make a build. They will not break a build, and they will not have any measurable impact on a build. Five points is background static considering the build guides will already get EVERYTHING you need with many discretionary points to burn.

4: This is a good thing. It makes it an achievement to chase. Having difficult goals keeps the game healthy.

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FutureFear wrote:

My highest level ever was 97, and I didn't even bother trying to reach LVL 100 because of the exp penalty; one death is like 2 weeks of my time at that point... Not really the most enjoyable experience!

Improve your play, improve your build or improve your gear. Or accept that you will hit an impasse at some point.

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Sabranic_SilverDeth wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

Okay I accept that challenge. I propose that whenever one's character dies then the character is deleted along with all items equipped and the whole account is locked for 24 hours. That is on softcore. In hardcore in addition a finger would have to be amputated. That would really punish any character death. Dying should feel really bad.

So is that just a "head trick"? If not then you can't claim that anymore. :-)

LOL. Reductio ad absurdum is a fallacy.

The serious point is that your implied assertion that all other alternative death penalties are purely head tricks is an exaggeration. There have been many proposed in the probably hundreds of threads like this. It seems to me to be rather close minded to think no other death penalty could possibly replace the current experience point penalty. I would be willing to bet that if by some miracle GGG decided to change the current penalty that you would be here in the forums the next day vehemently and aggressively defending that new death penalty no matter what it was.

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Turtledove wrote:

The serious point is that your implied assertion that all other alternative death penalties are purely head tricks is an exaggeration.

No, it is not an "exaggeration" - head-games are precisely what numerous people are pleading for. There have been consistent calls asking for GGG to obfuscate the death penalty behind exp debts and similar mechanics.

That is a head-game. The net result is the same. It is not a distortion or an exaggeration to suggest that people are literally begging to be lied to in such circumstances.

"I got a death boo-boo! Help me pretend it's not so bad by hiding the exp loss using the UI!!!!"

Good grief.

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Turtledove wrote:

There have been many proposed in the probably hundreds of threads like this. It seems to me to be rather close minded to think no other death penalty could possibly replace the current experience point penalty.

I am closed minded - I know what I like, and I will defend what I like. I don't see that as a problem. I like the call backs to Diablo and some of the older MMORPG's. I also feel an exp loss is a simple and straightforward way of punishing death. So I will support it and pick apart what I feel are specious arguments.

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Turtledove wrote:

I would be willing to bet that if by some miracle GGG decided to change the current penalty that you would be here in the forums the next day vehemently and aggressively defending that new death penalty no matter what it was.

If I liked it I'd support it. If I didn't, then I'd not support it.

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Turtledove wrote:

The serious point is that your implied assertion that all other alternative death penalties are purely head tricks is an exaggeration. There have been many proposed in the probably hundreds of threads like this. It seems to me to be rather close minded to think no other death penalty could possibly replace the current experience point penalty. I would be willing to bet that if by some miracle GGG decided to change the current penalty that you would be here in the forums the next day vehemently and aggressively defending that new death penalty no matter what it was.

I'm willing to entertain other options - in fact I've argued several times within this thread alone for a much harsher death penalty - but the reality is that the current penalty (players lose experience toward the next level) is literally the most lenient penalty possible (aside from "no penalty at all" I guess, which for reasons already covered is an idiotic suggestion).

So, let's have that conversation then: what other options exist?

Should gear have durability, so that dying requires players to spend currency repairing it or it becomes unequippable?

Should GGG cut out the middleman and just rip currency out of people's stash tabs?

Should players lose all of the loot they've grabbed so far in that map?

Should players de-level if they're below 5% experience?

Should players' skill gems lose experience?

All of these options are much, much harsher than the current system which - and I cannot overemphasize this point - absolutely does not matter to characters below level 95. Like... at all. You can literally die once or twice in every single map and still hit lvl 95, which I know for a fact because I've DONE it dozens of times.

I've got to level 97 just by delving, on characters that die a LOT. You just can't die every 10 seconds, which is honestly a pretty damn low bar to clear. So when you say "the death penalty doesn't have to be exp loss," you're absolutely right? But I don't know if you understand how gentle this current penalty is, and that any alterative GGG might come up with would be FAR harsher.