So why is the chineese client a much better game than the western one?
" Apologies, that was harsh of me and it was an edit/afterthought. It really did come across to me like you were casually equating QoL (including auto-pickup of certain items) with 'dumbing down'. If you are used to me being stereotypical jumping to that conclusion, I hope you are at least somewhat used to me recanting said jumping. It's a character flaw, sort of comes with the territory of how I post. It'll probably happen again; I'll apologise and recant then too. :) I believe there can be middle ground (I wouldn't respond to anyone if I didn't) between the 'hardcoreness' of a game and its QoL, and I believe that PoE2020 hasn't done much to seek it. I'm just trying to understand why, how people feel about that, and I suppose following that, why they accept it. Also, you're not some mannequin in a shop window. Be who YOU want to be; being who others want you to be, especially in a discussion this integral, isn't going to help anyone! :) " Excellent contribution as always. I agree that they should be, and that there are differences between QoL and 'polish' -- but what they both have in common is significant to this discussion: they're both voluntary, extra, bonus. At least, as far as the international PoE is concerned. I would say that in the game design industry overall, they are far less 'bonus' or 'extra' than here. And, from what I've seen, they're also less 'bonus' or 'extra' outside of the ARPG genre -- maybe because the ARPG genre itself has PC roots and PC games typically have less need of QoL and polish than a multi-platform title? That's just spitballing, but when I think of the least-polished, least user-friendly 'hits', I think of PC-aimed juggernauts that almost assume players will mod them into shape (although at the same time, at least a few of those *use console control set ups even on PC*). Or maybe it's the perceived player of ARPGs, someone less inclined to care about polish and QoL? Either way, ARPGs really do seem to place a lower priority on polish and QoL than most other genres. As for the PR statement, that wasn't really lack of polish. People aren't asking for polish with their leagues; they're asking for smoothness. Oh, that really seems like splitting hairs, doesn't it!? You polish something, it becomes smooth. Okay, yes, granted. But I think in terms of game design, polish encapsulates more than just smooth gameplay/minimal bugs/better balance. It's stuff like cleaner UI, extra features like an in-game character builder, replacement of what still looks like placeholder graphics, all that. And that's where QoL and polish dovetail -- a well-polished game *typically* has noticeable QoL features. Again, that didn't seem the core of the damage control to me. I think it would take a drastic shift in priorities for genuine polish now -- which is sort of what this thread is all about. If polish is, say, the comfort of the passenger of the plane (anything from seat design to the food served to the ammenities), then I'd say Chris' statement was still just a very long, 'we will land the plane more smoothly next time'. " It absolutely is a different game, but it's an important comparison because it's another very successful f2p considered 'acceptable' by Western PC gamers. Even though it has what PoE would consider 'pay to win', its own players typically view it as 'pay to skip the grind'. That's another flavour of 'pay for convenience' though: you can outright buy 'frames and weapons (frames are sort of like classes you can change between missions/runs), but you can also grind for their components and craft them. Storage I believe HAS to be bought, as do most frame skins (especially player-designed ones). I can already hear some Exile screeching like klaxons...and yet Warframe is popular even with Exiles. The financial difference is virtually no mtx for Warframe costs more than ten bucks, and the game is feature-rich in ways that PoE could only dream about it. It is a true game-as-service in its scope: massive open areas are added fairly regularly; entire new game play modes are par for the course; the feel of the 'world' changes with each expansion. It doesn't do leagues or 'resets'. You really can commit to playing it for free, in the long term, and not feel like the game is hamstringing you every 3 months with some seemingly desperate attempt at seeming 'new' or 'fresh'. And aesthetically it's generally quite pleasing even on the cheap: you don't buy single dyes; you buy entire palettes, and they can be applied to pretty much everything from your base (ship) to your frames to your weapons. Sometimes the game even just gives you palettes. So what you get 'for free' in Warframe is significantly more than PoE, in terms of 'polish' and 'QoL'. And I DO think that's possible in part because its devs can rely on non-whales (dolphins, to be technical) opting to pay to skip grind now and then, or investing in a skin for their favourite frame. This is very different to how PoE seems to survive: bulk sales of support packs and storage, with a wildly variant virtual price range of its shinies. I'm honestly not sure who, if anyone, is still buying the top tier of PoE mtxes -- 100USD for a pretty crappy looking armour set seems utterly ridonkulous to me now, but were no one buying them, I imagine TencentGGG would maybe stop trying to sell them. At this point I've probably aroused the ire of other Operators here: I haven't personally played in at least a year, and I know the devs have added a lot recently. So there may be more vectors for payment I've missed. But I've not heard an outcry from the playerbase so...maybe not. Either way, the reason I bring up Warframe is because, although it's a very different game, it is still a Western made, Western-aimed f2p game with far cheaper mtxes and FAR more polish/QoL and a financial system that doesn't seem predatory to its users or, indeed, the industry at large but would still make Exiles scream in red terror. So it does seem to me there is some relationship between f2p polish/QoL and the financial model chosen, with those skewing further away from 'non-p2w' getting the shinier end of the stick. I'll leave off the rest of what you said because I have no interest in further pushing the thread in that worn, boring, exhausted direction. To me, the in-game marketplace is just one more QoL feature the domestic PoE has that the international does not. I don't think it's a make or break feature either. I've played too many games with an in-game marketplace smoothly and happily to give a shit whether or not the international PoE gets one. It is not, imo, a major QoL/polish concern. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Oct 23, 2020, 8:55:05 PM
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" Warframe has an excellent reputation in general among gamers and critics. I do know that much about it. (I'd play, but none of my friends seem to think they'd enjoy it, so... /shrug) We all like monetization schemes that are not predatory. PoE's monetization scheme isn't predatory. It could be argued the Stash Tab bundle is pushing it a bit, but that's really about it. A few extra tabs and you're ready to play forever. No harm, no foul, consider it a free and fully functional preview with a very minimum one-time buy-in for "convenience." EverQuest is still a thing... It does have some "pay to win" elements. BUT, nobody cares as those really aren't needed at all to play the game and to enjoy it. And, that game is old as heck. Runescape? I haven't played it in eons, but they just did a big Steam Release... Go figure. It's still going strong, still making money, still enduring. It's really all about one thing - Did you design your game requiring the players to continue spending money in response to developer-controlled variables/changes? Did the developer "lie?" Did you construct your game around very frequent and repeated purchasing requirements? E.A.'s "Star Wars: Battlefront II" <-- Nuff said. The primary markets rebelled so strongly that "Real Life" governments were involved. Governments of nations with big tanks and soldiers armed with automatic weapons and the power to turn a development studio into a glass-paved parking lot took notice. Kind of a big deal, really. And, then there's the "FIFA" line of outrageously predatory monetization practices... Let's just not go there as it makes EA-SW:BF2 look tame in comparison. I hope the UK takes a huge dump on them one day. We all acknowledge that developers need to pay the bills and keep their employees fed. We, as F2P players acknowledge that we often buy in-game items just to "support" the developers and to show our appreciation. Some of us may even like the electronic things we've bought. (Maybe... two or three out of a grocery-cart-full of stuffs. :)) The message is pretty clear - Customers don't like outright predatory practices. They also hate being faced with forced "choices." Yet... they still buy. They still play such games. They still give money to such developers. PoE can't institute an "Expansion Pack." It can't charge for League Content. It can't put an artificial ceiling on "free play" at this point. It's really locked into the model it has right now. What PoE does well it does under extreme hardship - A dev cycle that is ruthless and that requires constant "victories" in a 90day campaign of furious "thunking up stuffs." It's pretty remarkable. But, it's a 90 day content development program that has a minimum of 120 days of actual work that must be done... Ninety days to release, another month at least to patch the problems that arise. I think that's where everyone's "lack of polish" comes from. I am amazed that PoE actually "works" at all, sometimes. Because of their hectic content-development schedule, we are faced with a constant stream of bugs being shoved in our face. That's it, really - We see "bugs" not because the game is continuously unpolished, but because it's getting new content at an astounding rate. And, with all that content, it's getting rebalanced every ninety days, too. What will be the exciting "focus builds" for next League? Someone, somewhere, should already be thinking about that at GGG. "Should" doesn't mean they are, but we all know what those builds are as soon as the League gets announced and item changes and new skills are known. That's more stuffs going into development that must be then... bug fixed and rebalanced... or not. AFAIK, GGG has never "nerfed" an entire build late in a League. Anyone? Any examples? Why? 'Cause they'll just take care of it in the next cycle. So, yeah, bugs, poishing, even QOL can be linked to GGG's rabid content-production schedule. That's why it's really not like any other game out there right now. But, certain QoL features are deliberately left out of development. On purpose. Why? Doing so is likely seen as ensuring the value of the work performed in producing the content - More players, playing longer, online longer, keeping Trade more lively for all, more able to buy... MTX. " /agreed Though, if GGG continues PoE's lifetime, it could become an issue for PC players at some point. My advice to GGG would be to float PoE2 right along with PoE and make a judgement call to end PoE services at some point, giving PoE customers transfer/upgrades to PoE2. They will have to weather that storm, but it'd likely be a smart move in the long term. (Unless they reduce development there and run in a "maintenance mode." But, that's probably not what PoE players would appreciate and ratings would tank in the absence of frequent League content.) |
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So little to add. We are in agreement. On almost every point. The one point of contention is the predatory level of PoE's mtxes and frankly that's a whole other barrel of laughs.
oh, and this one: " Could snapshotting be considered an example of this? I don't recall how late into the league it happened, but it was significantly into the league's progression from memory. Again, peripheral to the topic at hand. Alright, back to snapping at raw meat on a rope for you. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Oct 23, 2020, 9:52:25 PM
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" I remember that. Sometime last year? Mid-year or so? (Or, at least another issue of unintended snapshotting. Diablo 3 has had similar issues as well, IIRC.) But, it's difficult to count that as a build-defining nerf, even if it was very powerful. Dang... I do remember that specifically, just don't remember what build it was. " Sometimes, just engaging with such mindless stuff is rewarding, even if the cause was false. It's not like I'm sitting around and waiting for the U.N. to get back to me on that list of suggestions for "World Peace" I submitted as part of my consultation work. Very professional, .pdf even, no crayons were harmed... /sigh Oh well, more crapposting to do, so much time to do it in! ;) |
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 If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between.
I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. |
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" Glorious gif! Bird lover of Wraeclast
Las estrellas te iluminan - Hoy te sirven de guía Te sientes tan fuerte que piensas - que nadie te puede tocar |
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There's a ton of text in this thread, but the answer boils down to two words: Chris Wilson.
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" I found it appropriately Ghostly. __ I'm trying to decide if the topic title is a typo or racist... If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between.
I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. |
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" Someone said it, thankfully Shag, you really are that one uncle of the community xD |
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" I'm used to this forum stereotyping. Anyhow, too tired to bring anymore(?) substance to this debate, other than; PoE needs more polish, it needs more QoL, but it does not need more pay-for-stuff-that-should-be-standard-even-for-free-to-play-games. Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile.
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