Real Money Auction House RMAH for poe

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xxnoob wrote:

Do you enjoy it?

What I enjoy is really beside the point I was making.
While I might even agree with your opinion for all you know, it still doesn't mean it's the universal truth and that everyone who have a different opinion fails to understand "the nature of the game".

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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xxnoob wrote:

So why do you enjoy paying to win? Do you enjoy it at all?

Have you ever refueled your car instead of letting it die and catching the bus? Bought more costly food rather than choosing to live on rice and beans? Bought the softer brand of toilet paper over the horrible thin brands? Paid to play a videogame? Paid to play a videogame that you know will be free, even?

Life is full of things that don't have a "point". I dare say that most of the things money gets spent on in the world are not strictly necessary to anyone. Yet they enjoy them, nonetheless. Why is this suddenly surprising when the item exists only within a computer?

Have you ever had a cookie?.

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tachi203 wrote:

Well,

When you get yourself into situation's where people are willing to take you up on that statement "to literly open your skull and claw their knives on in your mind", I'm certain you will find that its not that open currently.

:)

That was.. random..? :p

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Sickness wrote:

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tachi203 wrote:

Well,

When you get yourself into situation's where people are willing to take you up on that statement "to literly open your skull and claw their knives on in your mind", I'm certain you will find that its not that open currently.

:)

That was.. random..? :p

Actualy "literal" TBH.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

xxnoob wrote:

So why do you enjoy paying to win? Do you enjoy it at all?

Have you ever refueled your car instead of letting it die and catching the bus? Bought more costly food rather than choosing to live on rice and beans? Bought the softer brand of toilet paper over the horrible thin brands? Paid to play a videogame? Paid to play a videogame that you know will be free, even?

Life is full of things that don't have a "point". I dare say that most of the things money gets spent on in the world are not strictly necessary to anyone. Yet they enjoy them, nonetheless. Why is this suddenly surprising when the item exists only within a computer?

Here's how I see it.

I've done all those things, but...they're within a different environment than 'the game', whatever you might call it. All those things are 'legitimate' choices within the context of 'life' -- they're all choices we can make without necessarily moving outside of some acceptable spectrum of reality. Not everyone can 'afford' to do it but there exists within the same game as they play the possibility to do so. Even if it's a very low chance thereof.

But to buy an item in a game with real world money is to step outside of that game to alter the state of that game to the player. I'm trying to think of a real world comparison but they all sound so ridiculous in my head. Okay, you know one comparison I can make? Deus ex machina in movies and books. The main character is in a bind, not doing so hot, and suddenly a rich relative dies and leaves the character all their wealth. Bam, solved. But it's sort of cheating. The resolution isn't earned, it's not logical. It's possible, yes, but not really fulfilling.

I see buying items for my characters with real money as the same thing. I'm telling their story through the gameplay, through the level gains, and to suddenly bestow upon them these incredible items is, to me, a form of Deus ex Machina. I'm sure they'd really appreciate it, but as their 'god', their narrator, I am not satisfied by that move.

Even when I twink items I sometimes come up with explanations in my head for why and how. Not always, but sometimes.

Now, this is ALL just how I see it. My opinion (in case any of you had some ridiculous notion that I of all people can't acknowledge that other people have different views and ideas!), and how I negotiate things. Others can pay-to-win all they want; the RMAH is a great idea for so many gamers. It's not for me. So here I am.

It's that simple.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

For what it's worth, noob, I really dislike agreeing with you, because you don't even play this game anymore, but the post to which I was responding? 100%.

Holding myself until it's released. I enjoyed playing it so far, but it's also a busy time for me. Summer is coming though.

I did beat a few bosses.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

xxnoob wrote:

So why do you enjoy paying to win? Do you enjoy it at all?

Have you ever refueled your car instead of letting it die and catching the bus? Bought more costly food rather than choosing to live on rice and beans? Bought the softer brand of toilet paper over the horrible thin brands? Paid to play a videogame? Paid to play a videogame that you know will be free, even?

Life is full of things that don't have a "point". I dare say that most of the things money gets spent on in the world are not strictly necessary to anyone. Yet they enjoy them, nonetheless. Why is this suddenly surprising when the item exists only within a computer?

Why are you comparing p2w in video games to real life necessities?

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tachi203 wrote:

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AgentDave wrote:

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tachi203 wrote:

wall of heretical text

For starter's I am glad you pointed out the fact that "you wish to seperate yourself from being ethical" now, because obviously it was wrong for me and society to expect "you"...... to be ethical.
(So why should anyone trust you? if you, yourself do not wish to be held in good standing(for fear it reflect's badly on you and other's. truely sad, that you do not wish this "But you would be out of a job if this were true in reality").)

You believe yourself and others to have a singular "right", to disregard other's wishes for their property or to attempt to create a sporting enviroment within a game.

And you like to "truth-claim" that you yourself do not engange in this activity that you are trying to condone against the owner's wishes.

You can clearly been seen to give the image of nothing more than a hypocrite.

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AgentDave wrote:

"no one get's hurt"

The majority/minority(An unknowable amount here) the "developer's themselves" who do not wish this, would be deeply hurt and offended. The unknowable value they place on this intrustion cannot be estimated either. And as such an un-calculateable amount of damage would be done to the community.


Steroids:

I never said they were "Illegal" you pooped that out yourself. I had already taken what you consider to be "Illegal and not Illegal" into account before speaking for this very purpose. And now, I find you are the one confused. Ironic.


We have two ethical concepts not made illegal, but punishable for non-compliance...Regardless of health and safety on one hand, And both come down to the arguement of "universal law's" as they are the foundation for fair competition. And both concepts are held with dis-content and thus shuned and punished.

---

And even more interesting you think I am imposing my own ethic's..... Seriously, the same arguement could be made for you aswell.

(And please note, my own personal ethic's are probably absolutely barbaric compared to what im trying to uphold)

But unfortunatly unlike yourself, these are not my own ethics, I did not invent them on the spot. These are long held ethical values I am trying to uphold and you and the few others here filled with discontent, are the ones putting them through their paces to change for "Your agenda".

Moral absolutism - You but mearly need look into a mirror.


To be perfectly honest, you are argueing against the current day ethics in the wrong place. Take it to court, and come back with a new ethics decision, because you would really need to reinvent society as a whole or this community to get your way.

Untill then.

You would be beter asking the owner's of this game what they think about your proposal.

O wait, they already answered.

What... the... HELL are you talking about?

I never said anything about separating myself from being ethical. I'm an ethical person, one can not separate oneself from... oneself...

I am open minded and non-judgmental. Why do I support RMAH? The same reason I support gay marriage, the "right to choose", legalizing pot, and the repeal of blue laws in general.

Just because I don't agree with someone, or engage in it (here's a hint: I'm not gay, have never smoked pot, and I would never ever ever want my wife to have an abortion), doesn't mean that I think that you, me, the government, or anyone else has any right to tell people how to live their lives.

You act like morality and ethics is cut and dry. If that were true, there would be one religion. There's not. It's not that simple. There's circumstances, there's upbringing, there's personal experience, there's conviction.

Ever read (or seen the musical... or the movie...) Les Miserables? It's an excellent study in ethics - Valjean (after the Bishop "redeems" him) is as ethical as Javert - and yet, one of them ends up loved, at peace, dying happy and old. The other dies alone, miserable, and by his own hand. And yet, the two of them, in the same situation, would (and did) do completely different things.

You act like this would impugn on your rights. It wouldn't. They don't win. You don't lose. It doesn't hurt you if Joe buys an item. It's none of your damn business, just like it's none of your damn business if Joe prefers Don to Donna.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Where I live, which is the framework I speak from, steroids are illegal. I mean, yes, they're legal, if proscribed short term for a legitimate reason (Clue- Professional athletes can have steroids for legitimate reasons at legitimate levels, for legitimate amounts of time.).

Take it the court?

Again... What? The? Hell? Are? You? Talking? About?

No, don't bother answering. Either you are trolling me, or your incapable of understanding the concepts you're trying to act like an expert in.

Just to reinforce Dave's statement (and I've avoided the tachi/Dave saga for very good reason) -- 'ethics' is a mighty big word in an academic context. 'Moral' is bad enough, but 'ethics' is a whole field of study encompassing just about every philosopher you've never wanted to read even though you might admire the occasional mighty moustache.

Dangerous place to go on what I see as a pretty light-hearted forum.

Edit: although we can probably blame Chris for this. He does refer to the microtransactions forthcoming in the cash shop as 'ethical'. It's a good word in context but still, bit of a minefield if you want to apply it to something broader like a RMAH.

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AgentDave wrote:

Again... What? The? Hell? Are? You? Talking? About?

No, don't bother answering. Either you are trolling me, or your incapable of understanding the concepts you're trying to act like an expert in.

In a debate, it is not "you" I am trying to win over. It is those reading.

Your failure to third party your own opinions is answer to your confusion, let alone mine.

.....And the dog ran away with the shoe....


Just to clarify where maybee you got lost here are the quotes on reference.

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AgentDave wrote:

"even if a law had a good ethical reason to be put into place (which is dubious. You're calling me unethical and holding politicians up as the paragon of ethics here. Laughable. At best.)"

"Prohibiting it only rewards the unethical people - the status quo is a base line"

"Just to reiterate, since you conveniently overlooked it last time: I've never bought, or sold, any item or account, in any game - and I've have plenty of opportunity in plenty of games. So, this moral high ground that you think you have is pretty silly - I'm not defending my actions (having never done it.)"


"Morality doesn't mean that YOU get to decide what's right and wrong. And honestly, that really pisses me off in today's world. People think they're right, because they're Christian, or Islamic, or an atheist, or white, or not white, or what-the-heck-ever."

"Moral absolutism is the cause of lots of bad things that happened in that "history" thing I keep referring to. Go educate yourself."

I had to address these points and the manner you wrote them in...I did it in one block..maybee I should have split it up. But I decided against spliting it apart, for a more "roll off the tounge reply".

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AgentDave wrote:

your incapable of understanding the concepts you're trying to act like an expert in.

Please...The only one of us that has stooped to the "Im a expert/insurer, so I know best" or any kind of Saint-Hood remark is "you".... I have since the beginning replyed with nothing but a ardent attempt to throw in some shared values of the community here.

And as such, you cant seem to even attempt to respect that. Thus why should I give you an ounce of rebutle room.

When you yourself are looking out-of-touch with your own humanity.

Geez condesending prick's I have to deal with.

*sigh...deep breath...and in we dive!*

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AgentDave wrote:

Just because I don't agree with someone, or engage in it (here's a hint: I'm not gay, have never smoked pot, and I would never ever ever want my wife to have an abortion), doesn't mean that I think that you, me, the government, or anyone else has any right to tell people how to live their lives.

I was talking to a Texan not that long ago (my girl's from there, so we jaunt back now and then), and his distrust of the government blew my mind. But he was a fairly rational dude, relatively worldly and quite open-minded on a number of subjects. He was, oddly enough, very homophobic (a fatal flaw, I suppose) but supported gay marriage as a concept. The point is, as an Australian, I couldn't begin to understand why he felt like he had to make 'war' on the government eventually. He believed it was coming. Earnestly. He was armed and ready. I wasn't scared, just...a little sad that a governing body for what is one of the greatest nations on earth can make its people feel that way.

My girlfriend and I rarely fight, but it's usually about politics. Not that I'm particularly politically minded (if you ever want to see things bleed, put an English/Philosophy scholar in the same room as a Pol Sci devotee), but she has brought over a definite wariness of authority and government in general. Meanwhile, Australia continues to become a nanny state. Even I can no longer ignore this.

I want to focus on the idea that the government has no right to tell people how to live their lives. Is that really true? There are, after all, some laws that are pretty much the government telling people how to live their lives. Most are based on a great deal of common sense, yes, but not all. Where's the line between 'I live life the way I want to live it' and 'I live life despite the law'? Is it really so bad to live a life that is for the most part 'morally upstanding' and within the letter of the law? I don't mean getting a speeding ticket here or illegally downloading games/tv shows there. I'm talking the balance between the words 'no one has the right to tell me how to live my life' and the likely reality that, yes, they sort of do, but it's a good thing.

To bring this back to the topic, Blizzard isn't telling anyone how to live their Diablo life. They're presenting a choice. I personally see it as a similar choice as liquor stores give to alcoholics, but you can't shut down a booze shop just because some people shouldn't be drinking at all. Because plenty of people can and do so 'relatively' smartly.

In this light, is PoE a dry county (I believe the US has these, much to my amusement)? Instead of opening a liquor store, I think they're planning on opening a candy store. Or maybe a fashion boutique. However you want to look at it, it's definitely not the same thing. Were PoE to get a RMAH, it would be like the county's first liquor store. Sure, the kids and determined drinkers might have previously just driven to the next county to get their booze (third party sellers, if you will), but opening a sanctioned liquor store in a dry county is a whole other deal. It's just not the same thing as acknowledging the steps people had to go to to get their drinks before...it's inviting drinking much closer to home.

And I choose to live in this dry county even though I have drunk before, even though I might occasionally head to other counties (games) where the rules are different.

...And that's why I cannot begin to imagine PoE with a RMAH. The lack thereof is a big reason why I'm here. That's my choice, and I feel it's the same choice anyone else who wants to live here (i.e. play PoE substantially) has to make as well. I don't think it's a hard one, but that's just me.

While I'm here, the government (GGG) is indeed telling me how to live my PoE life, or at least enforcing fairly distinct laws on what I cannot do. So what? Every game has rules. Every society has laws. True, political anarchy is a lot less anarchic than people think for precisely this reason.

There will always be someone or something telling you how to live your life -- the key to me is exploring why, and usually, not always but usually, I end up understanding why, even if I don't always agree.