Real Money Auction House RMAH for poe

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xxnoob wrote:

Why are you comparing p2w in video games to real life necessities?

Oh I just thought you might at least read the post and discover I was explicitly not talking about necessities.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

But to buy an item in a game with real world money is to step outside of that game to alter the state of that game to the player.

Well, you aren't "outside the game" if the rules allow it, but okay, I understand that the money you'd be paying for these items with doesn't come from within the game. Thing is, neither does the knowledge you use to make your character not a complete failure. When you navigate the skill tree and choose between 6% more damage and the ability to (somehow) convert evasion to damage reduction, do you really concern yourself with things being believably consistent - do you come up with an explanation as to why your character's future is mapped out on a stone grid?

I couldn't do that, it sounds really boring. I long ago learned to suspend disbelief when things like skill trees pop up on screen, when I'm deciding between two swords by looking at the "damage" numbers for them, or even when presented with the question of why my character's health and mana are constantly represented in precise terms by a red and blue orbs. I do the same thing when presented with an auction house that lets people pay for things with real money and have them instantaneously to someone in an identical but separate version of the same town I'm standing in.

That's a slight tangent, but really only slight, I think. I don't think it's reasonable to imagine some parts of the game as deus ex machina when if you take a step back, so much of it is abstracted away from the world, presented to and reliant upon the player, not the character. Obviously we all draw our own lines where we choose, but one more thing will do no damage to my view of the game.

Finally, if you are concerned about things from outside the game, I think it's a bit rich to dismiss the disadvantage that time-poor players have by reassuring us they have a chance, "even if it's a very low chance". Those who have many hours to spend will get rich in the game because of an advantage they brought in from "outside the game" - their free time. I don't mean to say that people paying for items is therefore fair, but it is no less fair than the state of the game as it currently exists.

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Charan wrote:

Even when I twink items I sometimes come up with explanations in my head for why and how.

So you see that there are workarounds for it within your RP purism then? Well, I'm glad. Doesn't that kind of run counter to your general point though?

I mean how is it that you can explain to yourself that your characters have a kiwi as bright as a small sun following them around, but can't explain that that character happened upon a magic sword or gem or whatever?

RMAH has no real basis as why should we even discuss as long as it is not even mentioned in the Beta Manifesto and the topic was cast away by the devs.

Irreality becomes reality for those who have wealth in real life but one does not game to relive the same on his screen.

Thus as long as it isn't on topic here or there I consider the whole thread useless junk only fulfilling a few users trolling needs.

Thanks. Bye.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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xxnoob wrote:

Why are you comparing p2w in video games to real life necessities?

Oh I just thought you might at least read the post and discover I was explicitly not talking about necessities.

Last time I checked, the things you listed are necessities, except for the video games part.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

But to buy an item in a game with real world money is to step outside of that game to alter the state of that game to the player.

Well, you aren't "outside the game" if the rules allow it, but okay, I understand that the money you'd be paying for these items with doesn't come from within the game. Thing is, neither does the knowledge you use to make your character not a complete failure. When you navigate the skill tree and choose between 6% more damage and the ability to (somehow) convert evasion to damage reduction, do you really concern yourself with things being believably consistent - do you come up with an explanation as to why your character's future is mapped out on a stone grid?

It's a representation of their narrative. Whether it's a skill tree, a character sheet with D and D, a stat screen, or just gear -- it's all metaphorical for the development of the character. I don't come up with every little explanation but if pressed, I can certainly 'tell' the story. Usually I'm too busy killing crap to care, but there are 'rules' I impose on every character that might be outside of the game to give that character character. Related to another thread, I don't Cleave with rapiers -- doesn't make sense to me, I don't do it. But to respond directly to your query: that choice between 6% more damage and the ability to convert evasion to DR (something I'd never do either, oddly) might be something like the character working on his swinging...or his evasion. I dunno, simple but effective. The character's future is mapped, too -- there's some element of destiny/fate to any character's story. If there weren't, why tell it?

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

I couldn't do that, it sounds really boring. I long ago learned to suspend disbelief when things like skill trees pop up on screen, when I'm deciding between two swords by looking at the "damage" numbers for them, or even when presented with the question of why my character's health and mana are constantly represented in precise terms by a red and blue orbs. I do the same thing when presented with an auction house that lets people pay for things with real money and have them instantaneously to someone in an identical but separate version of the same town I'm standing in.

That's a slight tangent, but really only slight, I think. I don't think it's reasonable to imagine some parts of the game as deus ex machina when if you take a step back, so much of it is abstracted away from the world, presented to and reliant upon the player, not the character. Obviously we all draw our own lines where we choose, but one more thing will do no damage to my view of the game.

It's boring if you take it too far. I usually just decide on a character theme and go from there. A few of them are adaptations from more established characters (be they my creation or someone else's -- I made a Marauder called Astarock, mixing the two massive axe-wielders from Soul Calibur, for example). I can appreciate how you can abstract the RMAH that way, but I can't, not satisfactorily. I think I explained sufficiently why in my previous post.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Finally, if you are concerned about things from outside the game, I think it's a bit rich to dismiss the disadvantage that time-poor players have by reassuring us they have a chance, "even if it's a very low chance". Those who have many hours to spend will get rich in the game because of an advantage they brought in from "outside the game" - their free time. I don't mean to say that people paying for items is therefore fair, but it is no less fair than the state of the game as it currently exists.

That's true. Time-rich when it comes to a game is definitely a consideration, but I view it as any commodity: if you can't afford it, don't do it. And by 'afford it', I mean to your level of happy indulgence. Not necessarily to be the best at it -- just to a point of contentment and fulfillment. Time-poor people can play games, for sure, but they'd be foolish to think they'd be as good at the game as someone who has more time. This applies to anything, doesn't it? It's not really fair, but it's life. A good friend of mine has a great little saying about people who pay heaps of cash the moment they get into a hobby thinking it'l help: all the gear, no idea.

I really like that. I've been guilty of trying to 'buy' my way into a hobby here and there, only to find out later that I really just wasn't any good at it. :) Games, well, I'm time-rich. Games are one of the things I choose to spend my time on, and I enjoy that a great deal. I don't look at it as an investment. I don't say, wow, I've spent 1000 hours on this game, I should therefore be 1000 hours' worth of awesome at it! It's not that easy a currency to discuss. And certainly much harder to quantify than monetary wealth.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Charan wrote:

Even when I twink items I sometimes come up with explanations in my head for why and how.

So you see that there are workarounds for it within your RP purism then? Well, I'm glad. Doesn't that kind of run counter to your general point though?

I mean how is it that you can explain to yourself that your characters have a kiwi as bright as a small sun following them around, but can't explain that that character happened upon a magic sword or gem or whatever?

Purism is a harsh word! I'm nowhere near as bad as I used to be there, believe me. Of course there are workarounds -- I do silly builds. My witch needs a staff, I've found a good one on my duelist, she gets it. I could invent a narrative if I wanted, but I don't bother. She's a staff-witch, she gets the staves I've found.

The kiwi has no in-game bearing. My character, as far as I am concerned, can't see it. I bought it with cash, therefore it doesn't exist 'in-game'. Same with all the other aesthetic things I anticipate purchasing, although in the case of character augmentation, it might be the opposite: it might be the game finally representing what the character has always seen themselves as.

Pardon for the trimdown, but I hate replying to a wall of text, and quoting it all, because it makes my reply that much more... wall of texty...

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

I want to focus on the idea that the government has no right to tell people how to live their lives. Is that really true?

From my point of view, the job of the government is to protect the rights of the citizens.

So, I feel it is the job of my government to protect the rights of gay people, and women, regardless of my personal moral feelings on homosexuality (unsure) or abortion (staunchly again, in general terms, however, one of the things that bothers me about much of the current US anti-abortion legislation which is having a resurgence is the absolutism (as I alluded to to Tachi.) - I am against abortion, but in the case of rape, or if the fetus isn't viable, or if the mother's life is in danger, or... (you get the idea...))

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

And I choose to live in this dry county even though I have drunk before, even though I might occasionally head to other counties (games) where the rules are different.

Yes, we have dry counties. And yes, you get to pick where you live, and should pick (within your ability) somewhere were you agree with the overall tone. Many Mormans live in Utah, because of the Morman history of the state, the laws tend to be in line with their beliefs. Bully for them, and while I don't agree with the concept, absolutely, you shouldn't move to Utah if you're a partier.

That said however, GGG has provided a statement which is wide open to interpretation. "We will not sell power". Well, that doesn't mean they won't let the players sell power. That doesn't mean that they think it's power (after all, they don't think increased stash space is power, which is... uhm... Yeah. I don't get how you could for a moment not realize that's power. Time = power in this game. Someone with 30 stash tabs has a tangible advantage over someone with 4, and those stash tabs (unless I'm mistaken) carry over to every competitive league they do. At least a RMAH can be kept out of certain leagues (like the competitive ones.).)

So, it's (as far as I'm concerned) an open topic. And as you can see, I enjoy engaging in complex topics - if it was straight-forward, I'd maybe post once, then not come back to the topic. What's the point? You answer the question (or not) and you're done. It's much more important AND interesting when there is perspective to be gained - and shared.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

There will always be someone or something telling you how to live your life -- the key to me is exploring why, and usually, not always but usually, I end up understanding why, even if I don't always agree.

Precisely! Why is RMAH considered out of the question, and even off-topic? I haven't seen any GGG posts on this topic. I have seen people refer to "we will never sell power", except that statement is inconsistent *and* unclear. Why do people have such a problem with something which ultimately doesn't affect them? How is letting Joe buy an Uber Sword of Doom in the RMAH hurt you any more than letting Joe buy a pack of Marlboro's? (In fact, it hurts you less (which is to say "not at all."), and Joe can still buy those smokes. :) )

I like knowing "why", and I really don't feel it's been properly answered. Because it's power? What kind of power? What power? Win what? Why is some power ok, and other power not? (and so on.)

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xxnoob wrote:

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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xxnoob wrote:

Why are you comparing p2w in video games to real life necessities?

Oh I just thought you might at least read the post and discover I was explicitly not talking about necessities.

Last time I checked, the things you listed are necessities, except for the video games part.

Yeah no. I was quite explicitly contrasting conveniences/desires with necessities. Car travel versus getting there whatever other way you have to (or, you know, getting a job within reach); more expensive tastier food versus cheaper survival food; soft toilet paper versus the scratchy stuff; videogames versus no videogames. Point being: people pay for things they don't need to all the time. I'm sure you do yourself. Do you question it there, though? Do you quiz people on this stuff, ask them "do you enjoy paying to have better quality toilet paper?"; "do you enjoy paying to entertain yourself with videogames?"

If you don't ask these question, why do it now and not then? "There's an endless list of better things they could be doing with their money."

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Charan wrote:

That's true. Time-rich when it comes to a game is definitely a consideration, but I view it as any commodity: if you can't afford it, don't do it. And by 'afford it', I mean to your level of happy indulgence. Not necessarily to be the best at it -- just to a point of contentment and fulfillment. Time-poor people can play games, for sure, but they'd be foolish to think they'd be as good at the game as someone who has more time. This applies to anything, doesn't it? It's not really fair, but it's life.

I don't know, does it apply to anything? Does it apply to a RMAH? I don't see why it wouldn't, but you don't seem to be adopting that view in that context. If time is just another commodity, to be treated like money, then surely the reverse is true - that you should treat money as you do time.

Because I agree: let people 'happily indulge' to the level they can afford, if that's what they want to do.

So, the core of your argument is right there. Insufficient explanation of what 'power' means when GGG says they will never allow it to be bought. I agree, it's a very vague term but also one that I wouldn't like to see bogged down in minutiae and legalese. I disagree that stash tabs constitute power in the same way as a particularly powerful item 'ex nihilo' might, but that is because I see stash tabs in a certain way. Someone else who might see them differently (for example, as an expanded arsenal) could see them as power. Unfortunately, and this is the same thing I've seen crippling certain areas of US security (did I mention I travel there a fair bit?), it only takes one dickhead pushing the envelope to force a complete rewrite of the rules. You'll know what I mean if you've flown in the past year or two -- some knobjockey managed to sneak a weapon through in his shoes. Now everyone has to go through the security area barefoot. This doesn't happen in any other country, and I've seen it baffle many tourists upon arrival in the US of A.

...Not to mention the potential for foot fungus, my god!

So while I agree that there needs to be clarity on this point, I also think that some measure of common sense should be assumed. The last thing we really want is GGG being bogged down in the laborious task of pinpointing every little detail of what constitutes 'power' regarding their cash shop when they have a game to finish...

As an aside, I have technically bought power in the game already. The influence that little sparkly bird has had on some people regarding things they're willing to let me have for free cannot be denied.

On the other hand (and this is always the downside of 'buying' power) most other people like to openly question my sanity and use that little sparkly bird that only 19 or so people have so far as a means of attack.

Power, even as abstract as 'influence', can make you a target, after all.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

I don't know, does it apply to anything? Does it apply to a RMAH? I don't see why it wouldn't, but you don't seem to be adopting that view in that context. If time is just another commodity, to be treated like money, then surely the reverse is true - that you should treat money as you do time.

If I lose money, I can compensate and make that back anyday.

If I lose time...That is something I cannot. Rosen Bridge/wormhole much?.


I agree the slots are a tangible discrepancy(I cannot find flaw in the opposition's arguement). Maybee it doesnt "cross the line" as much as a fullblown sale of the game with a RMAH...But it is a minute sale of power, enough to make it against the conduct that GGG have championed with this community/game.

DOWN WITH THE VAULT SLOTS!.


But I mean, the vault space is technically infinite as a GGG member did say multiple accounts are permissable. Thus multiple accounts worth of items....Thus infinite storeage slots.....

The fact it is a "Conveiniance at a price" is mearly Anecdotal evidence as who said I couldnt make another account faster than I could grab my wallet and credit card and buy some??.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Yeah no. I was quite explicitly contrasting conveniences/desires with necessities. Car travel versus getting there whatever other way you have to (or, you know, getting a job within reach); more expensive tastier food versus cheaper survival food; soft toilet paper versus the scratchy stuff; videogames versus no videogames. Point being: people pay for things they don't need to all the time. I'm sure you do yourself. Do you question it there, though? Do you quiz people on this stuff, ask them "do you enjoy paying to have better quality toilet paper?"; "do you enjoy paying to entertain yourself with videogames?"

Maybe the bus stops miles away from where you need to go, so you have to drive there instead. Maybe I don't want to die of malnutrition eating just beans every day.

What matters is, you can't compare real life items with in game items because you do not have access to godly money in real life.

Unless you live in a 3rd world country, of course.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

*stuff*

That's hardly the core of my argument.

The thing about GGG not defining power is an aside of why I am irritated that this was moved - And why I continue to follow the topic after it was moved - as we are discussing it, in PoE, as it would apply to PoE, and at the very least, how GGG would enforce it if they decided to prohibt the behavior, it is in fact on topic.

The core of my argument is that it's arbitrary to eliminate one axis of "fairness" when one ignores all the others. And that arbitrary is bad.

The problem is that that "ex nihilo" powerful item can still be obtained with resources both inside and outside the game. You can find it (Luck), you can grind it (Time), you can be given it by someone who outgrew it or who knows you (Connections), you can save up your Divines to trade for it (Time/Connections), you can save up your orbs to craft it (Time/Luck), you can have a dedicated magic-find character farming uber gear for your other toons (or to trade for uber gear...), and so on.

And all that hinges on the idea that somehow I would be getting an advantage over you if I could buy that Uber Sword of Doom, despite us not being in competition, and there being nothing to win. If you don't want to buy items, because of your RPish mindset for your characters, no one is going to force you to - that's hardly a reasonable argument why no one should be able to do it, especially since you would benefit from the increased revenue of GGG if they implimented such a system, whether or not you utilized the *option*.

The best reply I've seen so far was I believe from Zeto, who pointed out that Money isn't as boundried as time, connections, etc - You can spend $1,000,000 on gear, but you can't play 26 hours a day, or (Reasonably) have 1000 people farming all for the purpose of giving you gear. Well, ok, but so what? Playing 16 hours a day is about as obtaininable for me as spending $1,000,000 is.