Can we stop pretending that Path of Exile is free to play?

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Turtledove wrote:

You can't read? Having more stash tabs cannot slow one down. You keep repeating that stupid thought but it doesn't make it true. Simply don't pick up shit and hoard it!

Okay, explain to me why having lots of stash tabs forces one to hoard loot? You can't do it. It is absolutely impossible that having more stash tabs forces one to play PoE like an idiot as you keep falsely claiming. It is NOT true!

See, you want to argue with him but disregard the psychological aspect. If it was truly as simple as not picking it up - why is there SOOO MUCH JUNK clogging the market...?

It's not that it "FORCES" you to hoard, it's that having the ability to save something that MAY have value in the future instead of risking the feeling of throwing something valuable away.

It's not a false claim at all - I remember watching one stream briefly of empy as he ignored chaos drops - I've never been so wealthy in game to willingly leave that on the ground given the brief moment it takes me to pick it up. Yet, at the same time, I can totally see why someone would do so. For me, that's like a dollar, for him that's like a penny.

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Stormmyboy wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

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Destructodave wrote:

Paying someone in game to do a challenge for you? THAT's pay to win as it's literally paying someone to win something for you.

It would be, if you payed with money. But your not

If you're gonna quote me wrong, at least know enough grammar to use the right YOU'RE.

But I get that you probably didn't notice the brackets anyway.

Yet, if paying real money is the restriction, than every game you've ever bought is pay to win because any game that requires a purchase must be paid for, yet clearly we don't classify that as pay to win right?

Personally I do feel buying challenges is paying to win since you're literally paying someone to do something that is supposed to be a challenge you as a player completes. However, given the crazy rng factor of some of them, I also understand why. I would probably have my delve portal if I had been willing to buy some boss challenges, but I wouldn't have truly earned them either.

Yet the bulk of this thread is simply trying to label PoE pay to win - probably to justify why all those streamers are so much wealthier in game than these players who bought tabs and are convinced they need to spend hundreds more in mtx so they magically attain their level of "drops".

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

You can't read? Having more stash tabs cannot slow one down. You keep repeating that stupid thought but it doesn't make it true. Simply don't pick up shit and hoard it!

Okay, explain to me why having lots of stash tabs forces one to hoard loot? You can't do it. It is absolutely impossible that having more stash tabs forces one to play PoE like an idiot as you keep falsely claiming. It is NOT true!

See, you want to argue with him but disregard the psychological aspect. If it was truly as simple as not picking it up - why is there SOOO MUCH JUNK clogging the market...?

It's not that it "FORCES" you to hoard, it's that having the ability to save something that MAY have value in the future instead of risking the feeling of throwing something valuable away.

It's not a false claim at all - I remember watching one stream briefly of empy as he ignored chaos drops - I've never been so wealthy in game to willingly leave that on the ground given the brief moment it takes me to pick it up. Yet, at the same time, I can totally see why someone would do so. For me, that's like a dollar, for him that's like a penny.

It still doesn't make sense to argue that people will be more efficient with fewer tabs considering psychological aspect. He's stating it as a fact and his example as to why is hoarding and doing the chaos recipe or vendoring for shards. Well people don't have to do those things! Any other thing you point at I could say the same thing.

If he wanted to make a logically valid statement then something like "Having more tabs than 4 is not an advantage because ..." would be much more reasonable.

I have played right around 460 hours in this game. Which for some might not be much. The first 300 was played without ever buying anything. in Delve i bought a fossils tab together with some other stuff (essence, cards and currency) but this was mainly to support the game and not really because i needed it. obviously i found out how nice it was and yay, good surprise. but i didn't feel like i really needed it.
I only recently 400 hours + into the game buy a premium stash tab.
Its a bit nonsense to discuss though, this thread is more about feelings about the game.

Fact is though, i have played several league reaching endgame content and having great fun doing this. without buying anything. If i can do that, then this game must be f2p.
If there isn't anything in the shop that is Need to have But only Nice to have, then it must be free to play, the rest is just laziness and wanting nice stuff without really needing it.

Just my humble opinion.

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Boem wrote:

The argument was that having more stash tabs "saves you time" compared to people who have less.

Which only works if you have no experience with the game and are fantasizing about it.

...

We are in the same boat in terms of whether we consider PoE a free to play game or not, and we both do, however, this argument as well as racing as an example of how you can play without stash tabs does not really hold water if you look at it closer.

Racing is a short-term endeavor with a finite goal, usually reachable in few hours or a day of play time at most. This means that any pressure to use stash tabs is diminished and every moment spent in town matters. If you are doing multi-day "race" or just play because you want to kill Sirus at Awakened level 8, you are looking at days of play time. You will need some stash tabs and the fact you spend a minute after map in your stash tab wont penalize you as much as if you are in a short race (does it even penalize you).

Now, the stash tabs make you less or more efficient argument. You imply that stash tabs make you less efficient because you can just dump stuff there that you should never picked up in the first place. First, this completely ignores SSF players who will have different priorities.

Secondly, and more importantly, you can see most streamers to actually use dump quad-stash tabs to clear their inventory every once in a while. They usually sift through those quad-stash tabs off-stream to make it more efficient and entertaining to watch for their viewers. This is widely considered as a method most efficient to deal with loot. This directly contradicts your argument about stash tabs leading to inefficiency.

Lastly, specialized stash tabs absolutely improve your efficiency in dealing with various aspects of the game--Essence tab allows you to quickly upgrade low level essences, you would have to go to NPC to sell them, which is clearly less efficient than doing it directly in the stash; Fossils tab is better in sorting various fossils-you can memorize positions where you fossils are while it will be random if you place them in normal tab as you get more stacks. Currency tab is the best example of dealing with large quantity of loot/currency--I'm not talking about hoarding 100s of Chaos orbs but a currency used for crafting where there is no meaningful trade-up alternative such as jeweller orbs or fusing orbs. You will amass large quantities of these currencies, which you want to store somewhere. Currency tab is much better and more efficient way to deal with these than normal stash tab.

it is though,all you stated are convenient items or services,does it make it easier? sure. do you need them to play and enjoy the game to the fullest? absolutely not.

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ajo wrote:

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acravasian wrote:

in Delve i bought a fossils tab together with some other stuff (essence, cards and currency) but this was mainly to support the game and not really because i needed it.

Come on. If you are going to lie, at least make it less obvious. The fossil tab didn't come out until one year after Delve, yet you could somehow time travel to the future and buy one. It's amazing how far people are willing to go to white knight the stash tabs.

In delve after delve, sometime around, i cant really recall and i don't really bother to.

what my point is, which you clearly missed... you don't NEED the stash tabs to play the game and complete it, they are merely NICE to have. therefore, the whole thread is somewhat stupid... you can freely play and even complete path of exile without buying tabs.

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Turtledove wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

You can't read? Having more stash tabs cannot slow one down. You keep repeating that stupid thought but it doesn't make it true. Simply don't pick up shit and hoard it!

Okay, explain to me why having lots of stash tabs forces one to hoard loot? You can't do it. It is absolutely impossible that having more stash tabs forces one to play PoE like an idiot as you keep falsely claiming. It is NOT true!

See, you want to argue with him but disregard the psychological aspect. If it was truly as simple as not picking it up - why is there SOOO MUCH JUNK clogging the market...?

It's not that it "FORCES" you to hoard, it's that having the ability to save something that MAY have value in the future instead of risking the feeling of throwing something valuable away.

It's not a false claim at all - I remember watching one stream briefly of empy as he ignored chaos drops - I've never been so wealthy in game to willingly leave that on the ground given the brief moment it takes me to pick it up. Yet, at the same time, I can totally see why someone would do so. For me, that's like a dollar, for him that's like a penny.

It still doesn't make sense to argue that people will be more efficient with fewer tabs considering psychological aspect. He's stating it as a fact and his example as to why is hoarding and doing the chaos recipe or vendoring for shards. Well people don't have to do those things! Any other thing you point at I could say the same thing.

If he wanted to make a logically valid statement then something like "Having more tabs than 4 is not an advantage because ..." would be much more reasonable.

Nobody has to do anything turtle, whats your point, i never claimed people are rational actors.

It's like people filling up the attic or their garage with stuff they "might need" which then gets forgotten for 20 years until they move homes again.

People don't have to do that, but they sure as hell do and it becomes kind of hard to do when you don't have an attic or garage.

The claim is about efficiency, nowhere do i have to proof all people are rational and efficient i merely have to proof that the most efficient use of time requires no additional tabs.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Baron01 wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

The argument was that having more stash tabs "saves you time" compared to people who have less.

Which only works if you have no experience with the game and are fantasizing about it.

...

We are in the same boat in terms of whether we consider PoE a free to play game or not, and we both do, however, this argument as well as racing as an example of how you can play without stash tabs does not really hold water if you look at it closer.

Racing is a short-term endeavor with a finite goal, usually reachable in few hours or a day of play time at most. This means that any pressure to use stash tabs is diminished and every moment spent in town matters. If you are doing multi-day "race" or just play because you want to kill Sirus at Awakened level 8, you are looking at days of play time. You will need some stash tabs and the fact you spend a minute after map in your stash tab wont penalize you as much as if you are in a short race (does it even penalize you).

Now, the stash tabs make you less or more efficient argument. You imply that stash tabs make you less efficient because you can just dump stuff there that you should never picked up in the first place. First, this completely ignores SSF players who will have different priorities.

Secondly, and more importantly, you can see most streamers to actually use dump quad-stash tabs to clear their inventory every once in a while. They usually sift through those quad-stash tabs off-stream to make it more efficient and entertaining to watch for their viewers. This is widely considered as a method most efficient to deal with loot. This directly contradicts your argument about stash tabs leading to inefficiency.

Lastly, specialized stash tabs absolutely improve your efficiency in dealing with various aspects of the game--Essence tab allows you to quickly upgrade low level essences, you would have to go to NPC to sell them, which is clearly less efficient than doing it directly in the stash; Fossils tab is better in sorting various fossils-you can memorize positions where you fossils are while it will be random if you place them in normal tab as you get more stacks. Currency tab is the best example of dealing with large quantity of loot/currency--I'm not talking about hoarding 100s of Chaos orbs but a currency used for crafting where there is no meaningful trade-up alternative such as jeweller orbs or fusing orbs. You will amass large quantities of these currencies, which you want to store somewhere. Currency tab is much better and more efficient way to deal with these than normal stash tab.

Some things to consider.

If your not racing then time is of no value to you which means the "i save time by my stash tabs" becomes a moot point.
And if your racing then all time is of value to you because thats what your trying to be efficient on.
(im not saying this to be absolutist about it, obviously everybody values his time subjectively, but from an objective racing stance its fair to claim a different time assessment strategy between racers vs non-racers)

On the SSF point, since your playing in "solo self found" from my position its fair to exclude comparison arguments which claim X is more efficient then Y.
Your in a "solo" league which means your competing purely against the game, this is the whole point of SSF to ignore value based on comparisons via market systems.
There is also an argument to be made to differentiate between "active wealth" and "passive wealth", where your active wealth is the gear on your character which allows you to beat the content.
And while some passive wealth has utility, my claim is that people go far beyond reasonable quantities on this front if you give them the space to do so.

As for your second streamer point, again i never claimed people aren't hoarders. Streamers flaunting their 5000+ chaos orbs should give you a clue they aren't concerned with active wealth but with showing off their passive wealth.
Take for example the "lets corrupt X amount of headhunters" video's or the "lets turn in X amount of divination cards", they obviously don't need this stuff to beat the game in any way or shape.
It's pure entertainment thats created with passive wealth that has no relation to a "win condition" the designers of PoE formulated.

they accrue wealth to show of in a community setting, which is fine in itself but isn't a neccesity in any way or shape to beat the game.

This also doesn't contradict the point you can be more efficient by picking up less.
People not behaving in this way doesn't mean it isn't the truth, plenty of people have perfected strategies to gain wealth if thats your aim and saving time to go after the big ticket drops has been proven to be the most efficient way to do it.
If subjectively you don't find this "fun", nothing wrong with not utilizing this strategy.

I think this also covers your last point.
The efficiency claim is only relevant in a race context, so being less efficient outside of a race context seems like a bogus claim to me.
If your not racing then being slower relevant to other players has almost no impact as long as you can attain your other subjective "win condition".

Let's say for example you put your fossils in a regular tab vs a specialized tab.

Player A needs to use the search function in his stash to craft an item and takes 2 seconds longer.
Player B has a fossil stash tab and saves 2 seconds.

Both can utilize the crafting system and attempt to make an item.

How is taking 2 seconds longer relevant if you aren't racing exactly?
I mean, then we get "moving the goal post" arguments like player B can map for 2 seconds more...
But then the same counter argument persists, you aren't playing competitively so who cares?

As long as the game doesn't prevent player A from reaching his goal taking some additional time is irrelevant if he isn't in a competition.
And if the competition is relevant(economic or xp seem to be the core competitions in PoE) they both already lost because you wouldn't bother with fossils yourself but let other people do that.(buy in bulk and craft directly or purchase finished product)

Peace,

-Boem-

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ajo wrote:

You don't NEED level 100 to play the game and complete it.
It's NICE to have level 100 when playing the game.
Therefore, GGG could sell level 100 microtransactions and it would be totally fine.
/s

This logic though..

Your analogy is bogus because passive points directly enhance character power relevant to content.

Which is exactly what P2W means with "gameplay advantage".

Stash tabs don't do this since you cant throw stash tabs in a boss his face, however pleasant that imagined visual might be.
You could have 100 stash tabs filled with T1 gear and it would still not impact your gameplay, only the gear on your character would.

Peace,

-Boem-