Can we stop pretending that Path of Exile is free to play?

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Phrazz wrote:

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Boem wrote:

"asses"

Uuuuh, this debate just took a turn for the better.

fixed, cheers sir :p

Anything to light up your mood /tips fedora

Peace,

-Boem-

This game is nowhere close to f2p. You need at least 10 stash tabs for filling while farming. Currency and map tabs are a must too.

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Phrazz wrote:

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Destructodave wrote:

And whats even funnier, is I bet every single person in here, owns stash pages. The real issue is you guys simply dont want to be labeled P2W players.

Now your making up stupid issues by assuming, just to put players in boxes. Don't be that guy.

I have a lot of tabs. And I can agree that tabs give you certain advantages, and I can understand why people would call them "P2W". Do I agree? Well, sort of, while I'm at the same time don't.

The thing about stash tabs, is that they're a one time purchase. It's not like 20 tabs give you a larger "advantage" that 10 tabs. In a lot of P2W games, you can - whenever you want - use money to get ahead of other players. You can - whenever you want - use money to get certain advantages. You can - whenever you want - "cut corners" by spending money. In PoE, you can't. You can't "buy" your way to the top of the ladder. You can't spend money each league to get a boost.

That's why I'll never put PoE in the same box as "real" P2W games. Putting PoE in the same box as Clash of Clans or other "credit card games" is FAR more misplaced than not calling PoE P2W. There are several factors that place stash tabs in a grey area.

Spoiler

Anyhow, non of those factors makes PoE any less "F2P".

Most people arguing against that fact, in this thread, have supporter tags. Its a fair guess that they also used some of those points on stash pages. Most of these people would consider my mobile games P2W. But their exact reasoning as to why PoE isn't, also fits for my mobile games. Yet, I know my mobile games are p2w. I do think, labels play an important role as to why these people dont want to consider poe p2w.

So what if its a 1 time purchase? Just about everything is. I can buy 3000 crystals in some mobile game, and those are 1 time purchase for whatever I want; even the equivalent of stash pages(inventory slots). I mean look at it objectively; you are having to grasp at straws at to why this specific feature might not be p2w. When the simplest answer is that its paid content, behind a paywall, that gives advantages over those who dont have them. The degree of said advantages is irrelevant. Its whether its an advantage or not. Its a yes or no question. Not a "well if this and that, and then this, and if its this, and because of this...etc" Are stash tabs advantages? I find it hard to believe anyone who has them, and anyone who trades, would say they aren't. I'll even go so far as to say premium tabs and their trade interactions is probably the most egregious issue when deciding whether its pay 2 win. For a long time, these were set up to work with a 3rd party trade site. Trading without premium tabs is an exercise in frustration.

And trading, and wealth, are the key components of this game. The entire game is balanced around it. Even Chris mentions how important item value is in his speech at that game convention. This is a loot-based game, balanced around trading, and you can buy stash pages that make this infinitely easier than someone who doesnt have it. Its not Diablo 3, its not SSF. Even the endgame is balanced aroudn trading. Look at delving. Good luck enjoying that to its max without trading for sulphite.

And for the record, I'm just debating about the fact people say its not, because its fun. Thats what forums are for. I dont really care, and I dont think its serious p2w or matters; I mean spend 20 bucks. Get over it. But, it does surprise me people think otherwise. The stash page is a pretty cookie cutter example of today's p2w climate. Most games, the stuff you p2w does not come in direct power, like a sword, or gun, or item. It comes in chances/play-time/convenience/advantages/quality of life. Because those are more acceptable to the masses, and easier to sell. The main thing that is different, to me, about PoE's, is the fact the f2p playerbase cannot earn the "currency." Most games do allow you to earn stash pages or equivalent currency, by playing the game. I"m surprised they haven't added something in at this point that allows this. I figured by now they would tie something to seasonal challenges or something, but they havent.

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Destructodave wrote:

Stash tabs do save you time. A lot of time, actually, when you are actually playing the game the way GGG wants; trading. You guys keep using niche examples of ssf players and "win" arguments.

I sold a belly of the beast for 5c this league and a silverbough for 1 alc. Bought several items though, mainly several efficient trainings, about 5 maps a baron, two geofri's sanctuary's (one to eventually six link) and a max roll femurs of the saints.

EDIT - oh and 2 ex on the astramentis to avoid having to bother with divining, catalysts and annointing.


In about maybe 3 weeks I made as much if not more than I normally would in almost two months.

You say failing to trade is a niche thing - the reality is choosing not to bog yourself down micromanaging and trying to move anything that goes for a chaos or few.

It took me a long time to get comfortable vendoring uniques, especially the ones that sold for a single chaos or as low as an alch - because I knew they'd sell and was always thinking profit per map.

It's literally the aspect of gaming as to why I bought tabs in the first place - I wasn't sure if I'd regret throwing some stuff away that technically had value but not a lot.

To this day, I still have trouble completely getting away from chaos recipe, even though I've seen first hand just how efficiency works better. Legion was my wealthiest league, and because I finally broke down and went with the t2 glacier farm. Chaos recipe if anything has just helped me justify identifying stuff that I already know is likely to have no real market value. It's just that thought of throwing something or outright ignoring something that could be extremely valueable still manages to weigh on me - despite having bothered for rares every league and finding so few of actual merit.

You watch your typical streamer, they generally ignore the low value stuff because the time lost picking up, storing and eventually selling needs to be worth interrupting what they're doing.

People want to argue storage doesn't create bad habits? My standard (and most people's really) would say otherwise. I have tons of uniques that will never see use kept in the fear of something getting nerfed later or magically having a use develop. Then there's the stuff like zerphy's or zoph's blood that had a lot of value at one point but now are basically just trophies collecting dust on a virtual shelf.

Efficiency dramatically improves the experience in a game heavily dicted by rng.

Just like boem said, I pick up t1 maps and other low maps I hate to run and waste the time micromanaging them to this day - another bad habit, but its real and I know I'm not alone. One of my map tabs is nothing but war of the atlas that I plan to never use. I even have regular tabs of betrayal and legion maps that serve no purpose but to hold onto something that no longer drops.

Paying someone in game to do a challenge for you? THAT's pay to win as it's literally paying someone to win something for you. The storage tabs I bought a year ago - just the thought of sorting it makes me want to do something else.

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Boem wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Havoc became the Goat racer he is by timing his "town time" with a watch and cutting it down to seconds.

But not to worry, Turtle has proven time and time again that he likes his own subjective definitions of things, im sure he has a wonderfull one for "efficiency" within the context of this thread to suit his narrative.

Why look at reality and what players have actually proven to be true over the years when you can just use your intelect and fantasize about it and then demand others look at it like you do?
Come on now, don't be "illogical" about it.

Peace,

-Boem-

Your silly position that more tabs makes one be less efficient is beyond stupid. This is easily proven by the fact that one could buy a hundred tabs and then ignore them if somehow ever using them magically slowed one down.

So your argument is "people pretending they don't have the stash tabs they have makes them more efficient"?

You stated that extra stash tabs slows one down. This is ridiculous. It does not magically slow one down. I'm not addressing the deeper layers of your poorly argued position, just this top most stupid and ridiculous level.

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Turtledove wrote:

You stated that extra stash tabs slows one down. This is ridiculous. It does not magically slow one down. I'm not addressing the deeper layers of your poorly argued position, just this top most stupid and ridiculous level.

Of course it does, if you have more stash space you pick up more loot.

You quoted like 1/6th of my post and want me to explain the later half of it again?

If you don't understand that you value stash space differently depending on the amount you have maybe you have been playing with multiple stashes for to long to remember.

I played for three years with four stash tabs and it made me learn to be efficient with my space and time management and i could easily compete with players who had triple my stash amount.

Also it isn't about "slow" or "fast", the argument was that players with more stash tabs save time or have more efficiency because of them.
People have already done the tests, picking up exalts and chaos from pure drops compared to picking up rares and selling them for allts/a chaos in trade is simply better.

The fastest and most efficient strategy to play PoE requires the least amount of stash space.
You simply spam content and only pick up T1 loot.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

You stated that extra stash tabs slows one down. This is ridiculous. It does not magically slow one down. I'm not addressing the deeper layers of your poorly argued position, just this top most stupid and ridiculous level.

Of course it does, if you have more stash space you pick up more loot.

You quoted like 1/6th of my post and want me to explain the later half of it again?

If you don't understand that you value stash space differently depending on the amount you have maybe you have been playing with multiple stashes for to long to remember.

I played for three years with four stash tabs and it made me learn to be efficient with my space and time management and i could easily compete with players who had triple my stash amount.

Also it isn't about "slow" or "fast", the argument was that players with more stash tabs save time or have more efficiency because of them.
People have already done the tests, picking up exalts and chaos from pure drops compared to picking up rares and selling them for allts/a chaos in trade is simply better.

The fastest and most efficient strategy to play PoE requires the least amount of stash space.
You simply spam content and only pick up T1 loot.

Peace,

-Boem-

You can't read? Having more stash tabs cannot slow one down. You keep repeating that stupid thought but it doesn't make it true. Simply don't pick up shit and hoard it!

Okay, explain to me why having lots of stash tabs forces one to hoard loot? You can't do it. It is absolutely impossible that having more stash tabs forces one to play PoE like an idiot as you keep falsely claiming. It is NOT true!

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Redthorne82 wrote:

Kinda feels like 4 small tabs doesn't justify the "F2P" tag anymore.

Thoughts?

If GGG gave you more tabs.. how many tabs would it take to not be p2w anymore?
Its not about stashtabs dude, infact I miss having stacks of chaos in my tabs instad of a currency tab, its just slightly more convenient when your in town at your stash, as soon as you go back out into the game your very much on your own and nothing you can pay for will give you an advantage, at all.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

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Destructodave wrote:

Paying someone in game to do a challenge for you? THAT's pay to win as it's literally paying someone to win something for you.

It would be, if you payed with money. But your not

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Stormmyboy wrote:

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Redthorne82 wrote:

Kinda feels like 4 small tabs doesn't justify the "F2P" tag anymore.

Thoughts?

If GGG gave you more tabs.. how many tabs would it take to not be p2w anymore?
Its not about stashtabs dude, infact I miss having stacks of chaos in my tabs instad of a currency tab, its just slightly more convenient when your in town at your stash, as soon as you go back out into the game your very much on your own and nothing you can pay for will give you an advantage, at all.

At some point you do hit diminishing returns on stash tabs; but one of the real issues is premium tabs. Why they dont just make your first 4 tabs premium, I dont know. The game is too heavily trade-based, and the fact those make trading infinitely easier compared to not having them, its crazy they haven't fixed that yet. Thats probably the most P2W aspect of stash tabs, outside of convenience/QoL stuff like Currency/Map/etc. Yes, I know you can probably make those 4 premium for like 5 bucks, but thats still behind a pay-wall, regardless if you think 5 dollars is a lot or not.

The tabs they give players to start the game should have the trade functionality built into them. You can sell renaming/coloring/all that jazz, but the fact the easy trade access isn't built into the starter pages is a huge oversight to me. Players should be able to make the basic 4 tabs have buyouts, and be public. You can pay the 5 dollars to color them and rename them.