Can we stop pretending that Path of Exile is free to play?

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Redthorne82 wrote:

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Boem wrote:

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Rexeos wrote:

You should also add this part from Wiki, which in PoE term, gives you advantage over not paying players which results in saved time respectively "need to spend time progressing".

Can people stop posting this idiosyncratic statement.

Hoarding is the opposite of time saved in progression in PoE and the evidence is abundant for that.

In fact, people that want to learn to get really good at the game are usually bound to unlearn certain behaviors rather then learn new stuff.
(really good = read competitive either in racing or in wealth generation)

It's like a meme inside peoples head who never actually learned PoE endgame or efficient strategies, its a fantasy and nothing more.
Go talk with some racers or wealthy people if you wanna learn the game and how this "well it saves you time" is redundant.

Not picking up stuff beyond T1 unique's and t1/t2 currency saves you time and generates wealth and it works just fine of little stash space.

Peace,

-Boem-

The problem here, that you've reiterated a thousand times, is that you assume speed and efficiency is everyone's version of enjoyment.

I've been saying the win condition is to have fun, you're saying it's to go fast.

Neither is technically right, as the "win" condition would be to have all 6x T1 perfect rolled gear and finish all content. To "win" there would have to be NO way to improve. 1 frame kills on all bosses. But that's not why people play.

Some play to go fast, efficient, and have encyclopedic knowledge of the game. These people could literally kill all content in a couple days from scratch even if they had NO stash and no inventory (only equipped items).

I would wager that makes up less than 10% of the playerbase...for sure not a majority.

So it's fine having pay to enjoy the game MTX as long as there's at least one person that doesn't mind it? Seems irrational.

The entire point of starting this post was to see where people stood on this issue, and it's pretty divided. I like some of the recent ideas of giving a free premium tab or currency/map tabs to everyone and "refunding" current players that already have them in the form of in-game points.

Regardless of what you think, Boem, you're an elitist who wants to flex on all the new players that aren't enjoying their early experience without feeling forced to pay for more space to learn in.

You act as if being a gatekeeper for a F2P game is the biggest achievement in your life, and I hope it's not...because that would be wildly depressing.

No, i am saying that every single "win condition" appart from hoarding is helped by efficient gameplay.

And efficient gameplay is helped by having less stash space, not more.

Ask yourself, why do people play an "efficient build" in the first week of a league before they go the experimental "fun" route.
The answer is obviously because the more efficient builds grants entry level to the less efficient or more niche builds people like to play.

I'm not saying thats a general rule, but that people who refuse to utilize that option will have a worse time when playing PoE and probably blame GGG for things like balance etc because they haven't figured out the meta strategy that enables their "wonky playstyle".

Peace,

-Boem-

So my questions are ignored? Nice...

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Altnaharra wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Completely illogical position to take. Saying that having more tabs somehow forces a player to play less efficiently is an illogical and ridiculous position to take. Just because you keep repeating it, it doesn't make it true.

Since I started playing using no stash, I have become more efficient.
It is true.

Also, crafting on the go, is amazing.
You take far less time trying to tinker and muck around.
You take far less time gating here then back again.

You stop in town for a q-reward or two or three, check a vendor, then hoof it.
It is really quite different.

You dont have to have the mindset of IM GOING PHAAAST.

Just the mindset of, yeah I don't need all this rat loot.
in some cases, this might be rat loot, but its good enough.. whats next.

Havoc became the Goat racer he is by timing his "town time" with a watch and cutting it down to seconds.

But not to worry, Turtle has proven time and time again that he likes his own subjective definitions of things, im sure he has a wonderfull one for "efficiency" within the context of this thread to suit his narrative.

Why look at reality and what players have actually proven to be true over the years when you can just use your intelect and fantasize about it and then demand others look at it like you do?
Come on now, don't be "illogical" about it.

Peace,

-Boem-

Boem, everybody knows efficient gameplay is good to control. Nobody argues here.

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ajo wrote:

Still don't understand why this racing argument is not dead yet. As if GamesDoneQuick has anything to do with actual intended gameplay. Wanna namedrop a streamer? Then pick one of those who need multiple currency tabs to hold their currency alone.

The argument was that having more stash tabs "saves you time" compared to people who have less.

Which only works if you have no experience with the game and are fantasizing about it.

As for the multiple currency tabs, why would you assume that that isn't hoarding behavior? Active wealth is the wealth your using, not the stuff thats in your bank account for 15 years and didn't move.

I don't personally care about my wealth as long as i get to play the character i envisioned and acquire the components that enable it.
Nothing dictates you need 10000 idle chaos orbs for this.

It's like flaunting your legacy unique's to other players, an economical pvp ego.

Like i said previously, GGG creating stash tabs to fascilitate hoarding behavior doesn't make it P2W, it's just smart marketing since you provide something a portion of the community wants.

Did people start hoarding because GGG made the stash tabs or did they know people hoard and then fascilitated it.

It's like a map tab with a couple of hundred maps your never going to use because they are T1 or you don't enjoy them, but still pick them up and put them in. A complete inneficient use of time but people with hoarding behavior are still compelled to do it even if its irrational.

Peace,

-Boem-

Stash tabs do save you time. A lot of time, actually, when you are actually playing the game the way GGG wants; trading. You guys keep using niche examples of ssf players and "win" arguments.

Look, I play just about all my Mobile games F2p. I just do. Added difficulty, added satisfaction when I pull something off with limited resources. Just because I can enjoy everything the game has to offer, does not change the fact they are p2w games. Just doesnt. Me playing a mobile game F2p, is the equivalent of some SSF racer using 4 tabs. Its an outlier. Its also something a lot of people just wouldnt enjoy, using primarily 3 star monsters, for example. Even if said monsters can do the content, people spend money to get 5 stars.

Also, this game is based around trading, and even balanced around trading. This has came straight from the horse's mouth. Straight from GGG themselves. And there isn't a single person in here that can argue that premium tabs and lot of tabs is not easier than 4 basic tabs and forum trading. If you took 2 guys trading the same items, and gave one guy premium tabs, and one guy nothing, and timed who could get to shaper the fastest, the guy with the premium tabs are going to get their first. Its just easier to trade, easier to get gear, easier to amass currency. It just is. Maybe you dont consider that the game, but newsflash GGG does, and they balance their entire game around it. Just because they added SSF to appease a niche playerbase, doesnt mean the game is balanced around SSF. They have even said so. This game is balanced around trade, and tabs make trading infinitely more tolerable.

And another thing. P2W is an umbrella term. Its an all-encompassing term that all paid advantages fall under. There is a reason theres not pay for advantage acronyms, not pay for convenience acronyms, and why those terms are rarely used; because Pay to Win is an umbrella term that all those slot under. Even googling definitions of pay to win, should tell you that, since those things are the exact definition of pay to win. You guys keep arguing the "win" portion when you 100% know thats a terrible argument. I'm trying to think of an example of how awful this is. Neighborhood. Its the equivalent of you saying, "Why are you calling this a neighborhood. I don't see any neighbors wearing a hood." Its not perfect but you get the gist. You are arguing individual word meanings in an acronym of an umbrella term. Its foolish.

And whats even funnier, is I bet every single person in here, owns stash pages. The real issue is you guys simply dont want to be labeled P2W players. Well, that ship sailed the minute you decided to put money into a F2p game that offered more than cosmetics. Just live with it. No one cares in 2020.

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Boem wrote:

Havoc became the Goat racer he is by timing his "town time" with a watch and cutting it down to seconds.

But not to worry, Turtle has proven time and time again that he likes his own subjective definitions of things, im sure he has a wonderfull one for "efficiency" within the context of this thread to suit his narrative.

Why look at reality and what players have actually proven to be true over the years when you can just use your intelect and fantasize about it and then demand others look at it like you do?
Come on now, don't be "illogical" about it.

Peace,

-Boem-

Your silly position that more tabs makes one be less efficient is beyond stupid. This is easily proven by the fact that one could buy a hundred tabs and then ignore them if somehow ever using them magically slowed one down.

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Destructodave wrote:

And whats even funnier, is I bet every single person in here, owns stash pages. The real issue is you guys simply dont want to be labeled P2W players.

Now your making up stupid issues by assuming, just to put players in boxes. Don't be that guy.

I have a lot of tabs. And I can agree that tabs give you certain advantages, and I can understand why people would call them "P2W". Do I agree? Well, sort of, while I'm at the same time don't.

The thing about stash tabs, is that they're a one time purchase. It's not like 20 tabs give you a larger "advantage" that 10 tabs. In a lot of P2W games, you can - whenever you want - use money to get ahead of other players. You can - whenever you want - use money to get certain advantages. You can - whenever you want - "cut corners" by spending money. In PoE, you can't. You can't "buy" your way to the top of the ladder. You can't spend money each league to get a boost.

That's why I'll never put PoE in the same box as "real" P2W games. Putting PoE in the same box as Clash of Clans or other "credit card games" is FAR more misplaced than not calling PoE P2W. There are several factors that place stash tabs in a grey area.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Havoc became the Goat racer he is by timing his "town time" with a watch and cutting it down to seconds.

But not to worry, Turtle has proven time and time again that he likes his own subjective definitions of things, im sure he has a wonderfull one for "efficiency" within the context of this thread to suit his narrative.

Why look at reality and what players have actually proven to be true over the years when you can just use your intelect and fantasize about it and then demand others look at it like you do?
Come on now, don't be "illogical" about it.

Peace,

-Boem-

Your silly position that more tabs makes one be less efficient is beyond stupid. This is easily proven by the fact that one could buy a hundred tabs and then ignore them if somehow ever using them magically slowed one down.

So your argument is "people pretending they don't have the stash tabs they have makes them more efficient"?

Are you repeating my argument for me, cheers i suppose?

Go back to economics 1on1, scarcity drives value and stash scarcity drives value assesment.
And better value assesments drives efficiency.

Don't forget i was adressing the argument that having more stash tabs makes you more efficient in comparison to people that don't have them, which is simply not true.
Everything we know about economics and human nature opposes this and this is reflected in behavior of the most efficient players.

I didn't state that they aren't also hoarders, just that when they play efficiently they will in fact ignore more stuff because they will increase their value assessments.

They will "assess" that an allteration is not worth picking up, or a t3 unique or rares etc etc not because they lack stash space, they probably have a couple dozen of stash tabs, but because hoarding doesn't equate to efficiency.

And you can play without hoarding stuff just fine on four stash tabs and be as efficient as somebody with a dozen stash tabs.

The only barrier to this is game knowledge, which isn't for sale as demonstrated by the irrational conclusion some people derive from fantasy.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : cheers phrazz

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Boem wrote:

"asses"

Uuuuh, this debate just took a turn for the better.