Elemental and Physical Reflect Maps

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Head_Less wrote:

this would imply you use all of those nods and not decide a mix of reduced reflect nods + swap of gems (swap phy to light VS phy reflect maps for example)

Melee-casters can also use totems when the map mods is not favorable. Sure all this means you get slow clear speed but if you decide to play this map instead of re-rolling then you need to adapt.

Can we stay realistic a minimum please ??

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Fruz wrote:

2. so either your build is already immune to it, or you just completely change the playstyle for one mod ? It's not just "adapting", going from self casting to using a totem is ... pretty silly concerning how much builds invest into specific setups to begin with, and self casters might not enjoy playing with totems/traps either for example.

It's kind of similar so saying to a Zerk something like "hey, you see that no-regen mod ? you should be able to do it, all you need is respec your ascendancy, no big deal man", but here it applies to a much larger part of the builds/archetypes.

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Baron01 wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

We told you that it's a fairytale that pro-reflect people who don't really know what it implies tell themselves.
...

I wonder what is really motivating these people to argue for damage reflect mechanics. Damage reflect does not make the game harder, more demanding on player's skill or attention, it is simple 0/1 check.

And exactly that is simply not the case. I just dinged lvl95 in a reflect map, and I'm not immune. I have taken some -reflect dmg taken nodes, I have good block and fortify defenses and I took out some dmg supports. Then I didn't just blindly jump into huge packs and it was OK. Quite exciting actually, as I had to play a lot more carefully then before and had occasional close calls.

All the maths in this thread is cute and may even be correct for pure DPS builds, but obviously it is doable if you balance your build and adjust your play style. I just did it. And I can clear T15 maps just fine, so my dmg is not too shabby, either.

Jeezus, just dare to adapt or reroll.

As to unid maps: Well, if your char cannot handle it, then this is simply not content for that char. Just like I doubt my char could do the shaper due to lack of DPS. If I wanna do the shaper, I'll create a specialized build and not run reflect maps with it.
One size fits all is really boring.

The pro's of reflect are:
- A reason to build in some defenses. In fact, pretty much the only reason.
- A way to make tactics count instead of brainlessly clearing screens with the RMB
- A currency sink

I've tested an un-id'd map in a Zana mission list with my totem before. If it turned out to be reflect I would have just left. I don't see how that was an unrealistic play.

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SisterBlister wrote:

As to unid maps: Well, if your char cannot handle it, then this is simply not content for that char.

.............


Amazing balance
"Get Screwed, just. because."


JEEZ INDEED

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SisterBlister wrote:

All the maths in this thread is cute and may even be correct for pure DPS builds, but obviously it is doable if you balance your build and adjust your play style. I just did it. And I can clear T15 maps just fine, so my dmg is not too shabby, either.

So you casually just run t15 maps just fine .... and you have never ever killed Shaper ?
Wut ?
With that many lvl 90+ characters on top of that ?

How many millions of years does it take you to run that t15 map "just fine" ?
What are the mods ?

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SisterBlister wrote:

- A reason to build in some defenses. In fact, pretty much the only reason.

It only has some impact if you are not a pure on-hit build with very low dps, else it isn't complete nonsense.
It only forces people to skip it, or build a character immune to it.

It might have used to have a meaning, but now it's just horseshit.

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VolcanoElixir wrote:

I've tested an un-id'd map in a Zana mission list with my totem before. If it turned out to be reflect I would have just left. I don't see how that was an unrealistic play.

Did you actually read the whole post (as short as it was) ?
No you didn't, pardon me for asking ...

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Fruz wrote:

Can we stay realistic a minimum please ??

-What s not realistic, A melee build can swap to ancestral totems without any problem. There is even a support to have multiple totem now

-Phy to light inside a 6l was the go to in HC since 2013 at least for phy melee build. Nothing unrealistic there.

-simply switching gear for a map, put those crap rings to counter reflect. Nothing unrealistic unless players are lazy and can t use their brain to even swap gems or rings.

Yea it is only not realistic if you want to zoom zoom in reflect maps but again, just reroll? or 1 chaos is too much for players now?

If I play another pure phys character (which will be likely), I might expand on the phys to lightning idea and try going full conversion with Hrimsorrow (a relatively common unique) for pure phys maps.

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VolcanoElixir wrote:

If I play another pure phys character (which will be likely), I might expand on the phys to lightning idea and try going full conversion with Hrimsorrow (a relatively common unique) for pure phys maps.

You can even use that

https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Dyadian_Dawn double high res+ strg + high life. Best belt for countering phy ref as melee

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SisterBlister wrote:

And exactly that is simply not the case. I just dinged lvl95 in a reflect map, and I'm not immune. I have taken some -reflect dmg taken nodes, I have good block and fortify defenses and I took out some dmg supports.

...

The pro's of reflect are:
- A reason to build in some defenses. In fact, pretty much the only reason.
- A way to make tactics count instead of brainlessly clearing screens with the RMB
- A currency sink

You are picking "solutions" that are simply not realistic. Block is another example of niche option that is no available to everyone and does not even reliably work unless you heavily invest into it--it is not like you can just pick a random shield, even with good stats, and expect that it will save you.

What about 2handed builds? What about builds that can not use totems or traps to deal damage?

Those pro's are total joke and completely detached from reality:
1. Reflect provides very little reason to build defenses -- lots of defenses simply do not work on reflect or player's damage output is too high for limited mitigation / avoidance that defenses can provide. Some examples: Avoidance / dodge vs Hit's can not be avoid enchant, armor vs 100 000+ damage per hit/per second.
2. Tactical approach my ass. I still kill myself against high HP target even if I use single-target skill. There is no tactical approach to reflect, it is there and you either can ignore its effect or you avoid it.
3. Since when is currency sink a pro? It might be a necessity in the twisted logic GGG applies to Path of Exile economy at large but currency sink is simply not a pro for individual players. Re-rolling a map late in a league is a no brainer with little to no impact on players wealth. It can be very different situation at league start when currency and maps are scarce. The game is forcing us to use Vaal orbs on red tier maps in order to get Atlas bonus completion, which is instrumental in sustaining maps. Bad Vaal orb result can have very significant impact on your map progression.

Now, lets indulge your idea that players invest into gear and skill that reduce reflected damage to manageable levels, what are they getting for it?

Damage reflect mods provid lowest amount of IIQ, IIR and pack size of all map mods. Bloodlines mod, which is sought after mod gives you the same IIQ, IIR and pack size as one of the most lethal and resource demanding map mods out there. It does not make any sense at all to gear and build for damage reflect because reward for going through all those troubles is minuscule.

My view is that any map mod that prevent player from running a map should be removed from the game--damage reflect, no regen maps and similar. Add new mods with neutral risk vs reward ratios, add more positive mods, which clearly improve map yield or player's characters and player might actually spend currency to roll maps. I currently do alch-and-go strategy for most of my map pool and only "reroll" when I hit no-go mods. I only attempt to roll tier 15 and 16 maps for high IIQ and that more often than not means just adding whatever chisels I have before dropping alch on the map and adding fragments and/or scarabs to map device before opening the map.

--edit--

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Head_Less wrote:

You can even use that

https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Dyadian_Dawn double high res+ strg + high life. Best belt for countering elem ref as melee

Show me one of your characters that utilize these magical suggestions and is capable of clearing red tier map in reasonable time.

PS. Way to go to counter elemental reflect by not dealing any physical damage. You plan to bore those monsters to death or what?

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Baron01 wrote:

My view is that any map mod that prevent player from running a map should be removed from the game...

And that is your whole problem.
You're saying "I want my character to do be able to do it all. I don't want to have to build for it, I don't want to have to occasionally reroll a map if its risk-vs-reward doesn't suit this character, I don't want to play carefully and I want to be able to zoom-zoom through maps while watching TV. Oh, and I want all of that with any character I choose, not a specialized one from a pool of possibilities".
Fuuuuck, why play then?

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Show me one of your characters that utilize these magical suggestions and is capable of clearing red tier map in reasonable time.

It's a red map, not Uber Elder. Being slowed down if for whatever reason there is somehow literally no other option than to run this one map out of thousands is not a big deal at all.

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PS. Way to go to counter elemental reflect by not dealing any physical damage. You plan to bore those monsters to death or what?

These ideas are for phys reflect maps.