Elemental and Physical Reflect Maps

Thank you guys for this thread - reflect is something that has been bothering me, too.

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karoollll2534 wrote:

-max res, armour or cannot regen life is example of risk vs reward.
Reflect is either you play dot / 100% immune or you die. This is not risk vs reward, this is example of guaranteed death.

^This.

As fruz said as well, it's not so much the mechanism itself (= part of the damage you deal is reflected back to you) but rather the values. All those years of power creep* have resulted in a situation where reflect is no longer an "Oh, I gotta play carefully" mechanism but a binary matter: either you're [practically] immune to it, or you die instantly. That's the unfun part.

Opening an unidentified map and noticing that your health goes down when you deal much damage at once would be an engaging mechanism: "Whoa, this seems to be a reflect map. I'll have to kite larger mobs a little and won't be able to spam my skill 100%". This could be fine. I remember my first crappy self-made build years ago with very low DPS, when it actually worked like this and even was fun to play around. However, even then the build was by no means strong enough for even the lowest red maps.

At the current state of affairs, however, chances are you open an unidentified map, attack the first monster, and are greeted with the death screen. Now you know it's reflect, so you pick a different character that's immune to this kind of reflect and breeze through the map, totally ignoring the mechanism. Such engaging. Many suspense. So balance. Wow.


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*hasn't monster life been buffed as well in an attempt to compensate? Doesn't this cause you to deal even more effective damage as a result? Or do I misunderstand this part of the mechanics?

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Tolerantzdestr0yer wrote:

you cant reroll corrupted maps which is a thing above T10 which you are obviously not playing syph

I just complete maps uncorrupted and just use the additional copies I'm able to get to try to get a decent corrupted one later.

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Opening an unidentified map and noticing that your health goes down when you deal much damage at once would be an engaging mechanism: "Whoa, this seems to be a reflect map. I'll have to kite larger mobs a little and won't be able to spam my skill 100%". This could be fine. I remember my first crappy self-made build years ago with very low DPS, when it actually worked like this and even was fun to play around. However, even then the build was by no means strong enough for even the lowest red maps.

I'm pretty sure that if you corrupt a map into making it unidentified, it keeps its original modifiers. You only need to be cautious of unidentified maps that you don't know the modifiers of before hand.

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karoollll2534 wrote:

-max res, armour or cannot regen life is example of risk vs reward.
Reflect is either you play dot / 100% immune or you die. This is not risk vs reward, this is example of guaranteed death.

You're dealing too much damage for the amount of life, resistances and other forms of mitigation, pretty simple here.

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SamothD wrote:

Thank you guys for this thread - reflect is something that has been bothering me, too.

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karoollll2534 wrote:

-max res, armour or cannot regen life is example of risk vs reward.
Reflect is either you play dot / 100% immune or you die. This is not risk vs reward, this is example of guaranteed death.

^This.

As fruz said as well, it's not so much the mechanism itself (= part of the damage you deal is reflected back to you) but rather the values. All those years of power creep* have resulted in a situation where reflect is no longer an "Oh, I gotta play carefully" mechanism but a binary matter: either you're [practically] immune to it, or you die instantly. That's the unfun part.

Opening an unidentified map and noticing that your health goes down when you deal much damage at once would be an engaging mechanism: "Whoa, this seems to be a reflect map. I'll have to kite larger mobs a little and won't be able to spam my skill 100%". This could be fine. I remember my first crappy self-made build years ago with very low DPS, when it actually worked like this and even was fun to play around. However, even then the build was by no means strong enough for even the lowest red maps.

At the current state of affairs, however, chances are you open an unidentified map, attack the first monster, and are greeted with the death screen. Now you know it's reflect, so you pick a different character that's immune to this kind of reflect and breeze through the map, totally ignoring the mechanism. Such engaging. Many suspense. So balance. Wow.


____
*hasn't monster life been buffed as well in an attempt to compensate? Doesn't this cause you to deal even more effective damage as a result? Or do I misunderstand this part of the mechanics?

I should note that because i still run these maps i never said that it does not result in me dying, with the right mods it often does unless im extremely careful, Skill goes a long ways in this game that's why players can delve to 1000+ with only 100 ES.

The fact is you do not require the insane dps that most builds have to be able to complete all the content in the game, The content that does semi-require these higher damage values is generally not affected by map mods and thus i fail to see the argument here.

Agreeing with each-other does not make an argument valid, If someone would like to post their POB link or something like that to show that their build isn't a complete glass cannon please feel free, But I'm pretty sure most everyone posting in support of this plays on a glass cannon build with 0 or next to zero mitigation.

Are you even using flasks that reduce the amount of a specific element taken by a %? or if physical armour are you using flasks that give you a lot more armour?

I've had two characters this league which did elemental damage and had 0 reflect immunity and sure i died sometimes but only sometimes, I would adjust my setup for lower dps, add more leech and other things like this for those maps, I died about the same amount if not less than my current build dies from no regen, -max res and -%armour.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I should note that because i still run these maps i never said that it does not result in me dying, with the right mods it often does unless im extremely careful.

Whether you run these maps or not is not the issue here. The issue is that reflect is too "binary" in many peoples' opinion.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Agreeing with each-other does not make an argument valid,

...and nobody has ever said or implied that. Please don't use strawman tactics.

It might be interesting for GGG, however, to see whether only three people think reflect could be improved or if many people think so.

Let's face it, there is no inherent "correct" or "false" in this matter because it's matter of game design - you like it the way it is, or you don't. I know that personally, I'd like reflect better if it was less binary, and I don't seem to be the only one, so there's some feedback for GGG to consider.

I practically don't die to reflect any more because I play unidentified maps with an immune character, but that feels a bit like cheesing the game.

However, cheesing it and playing against the mechanism is much easier and more comfortable than rolling with it (switching skills and items , etc. just to make sure reflect doesn't kill you, and then you play with low DPS and get ambushed by a Syndicate intervention, hurrah), and IMO it would be better if it was the other way around.

That's really all there is, and the rest is for GGG to consider.

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SamothD wrote:

Let's face it, there is no inherent "correct" or "false" in this matter because it's matter of game design - you like it the way it is, or you don't. I know that personally, I'd like reflect better if it was less binary, and I don't seem to be the only one, so there's some feedback for GGG to consider.

I practically don't die to reflect any more because I play unidentified maps with an immune character, but that feels a bit like cheesing the game.

However, cheesing it and playing against the mechanism is much easier and more comfortable than rolling with it (switching skills and items , etc. just to make sure reflect doesn't kill you, and then you play with low DPS and get ambushed by a Syndicate intervention, hurrah), and IMO it would be better if it was the other way around.

GGG does need to do something about DPS getting out of control i'd 100% agree with that, 7million dps builds don't need to exist, But the game design does not force you to use that much damage to complete content.

Immunity comes with its own downsides as you do not get the more powerful ascendancy buffs from the other ascendancys but these classes generally function fine even in reflect because of the massive amount of mitigation available in gems, flasks, equipment and the skill tree in general if you've built a balanced setup.

Glass cannons cant do reflect, Its kind of designed this way to stop people from making glass cannons and completely dominating everything with their eyes closed, Plenty of balanced builds without total Immunity can do just fine in a reflect map.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

You're dealing too much damage for the amount of life, resistances and other forms of mitigation, pretty simple here.

LuL what a great argument.
Ok, lets pretend we are living in your fairly tale world.

8K life, magical 75% unconditional phys res. 15% reflect map

8k * 4 (from 75% resist) = 24k
24 / 0,15 = 160k

Wow, if we ignore that you cant leech 100% life/sec you can deal up to 160k damage in total per second without killing yourself (ignoring monsters damage to you). And assuming pack has about 20 mobs gives you whole 8k aoe dps/s

amazing...


But... What about reduced effect of reflect?
Dunno, lets pretend you have perfect gear and 90% reduced reflect effect (frankly speaking i have no idea what is current max you can get in total).
Now you can deal up to 1,6kk dps without killing yourself or 80k per mob.

AMAZING!!!

Tho you still cant interact with legion, breach, abyss, delve, incursion, strongboxes, attack more than 1 pack of mobs at once, kill any endgame boss or anything else without killing yourself from reflect, dying to monster dmg or failing time limit.


But if we ignore this you can complete white maps under 10 minutes with this amazing dps!!!!!!

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karoollll2534 wrote:

8K life, magical 75% unconditional phys res

75% for a physical build is pretty terrible dude, Also Phys taken > elemental conversions.

I'd really like to see this build lol

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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karoollll2534 wrote:

8K life, magical 75% unconditional phys res

75% for a physical build is pretty terrible dude, Also Phys taken > elemental conversions.

I'd really like to see this build lol

Ignoring rest of the post? Nice. Also keep in mind im talking about 75% unconditional phys reduction so ele. conversion does nothing at all since 75% blocks exactly 75%.

But hey, if we ignore every game content that forces you to deal with >20 mobs at once your "balanced" build is pretty viable for white maps. Tho killing map boss can take few minutes.

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karoollll2534 wrote:

Ignoring rest of the post? Nice. Also keep in mind im talking about 75% unconditional phys reduction so ele. conversion does nothing at all since 75% blocks exactly 75%.

But hey, if we ignore every game content that forces you to deal with >20 mobs at once your "balanced" build is pretty viable for white maps. Tho killing map boss can take few minutes.

So use Trap support, Ranged Totem, Spell Totem support to clear, or better yet don't run it, Plenty of people don't run no-regen maps because they are just as deadly to their setup which has less available to counter it than Reflect has.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I'd really like to see this build lol

^

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SilentSymphony wrote:

So use Trap support, Ranged Totem, Spell Totem support to clear, or better yet don't run it, Plenty of people don't run no-regen maps because they are just as deadly to their setup which has less available to counter it than Reflect has.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

---------------
ME:

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-max res, armour or cannot regen life is example of risk vs reward.
Reflect is either you play dot / 100% immune or you die. This is not risk vs reward, this is example of guaranteed death.

YOU:

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You're dealing too much damage for the amount of life, resistances and other forms of mitigation, pretty simple here.

Me:

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8K life, magical 75% unconditional phys res. 15% reflect map

8k * 4 (from 75% resist) = 24k
24 / 0,15 = 160k


Dunno, lets pretend you have perfect gear and 90% reduced reflect effect (frankly speaking i have no idea what is current max you can get in total).
Now you can deal up to 1,6kk dps without killing yourself or 80k per mob.

You

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So use Trap support, Ranged Totem, Spell Totem support to clear, or better yet don't run it, Plenty of people don't run no-regen maps because they are just as deadly to their setup which has less available to counter it than Reflect has.

Or in short:
Me: "You ignore reflect mod or you die"
You: "Balance your build"
Me: "Gives you math that shows you cant create viable "balanced" build"
You: "Play reflect immune build"

Great logic...

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I'd really like to see this build lol

What build? This is theoretical build that can mathematically deal most damage per second. In other words assuming perfect 75% damage reduction, 8k life, 90% reduced effect of reflect, ignoring life leech restrictions, no more than 20 mobs at once and 15% reflect map mod you can deal up to 80k damage per second per mob without killing yourself from reflect.

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You're dealing too much damage for the amount of life, resistances and other forms of mitigation, pretty simple here.

This piece of trash is the best build that meets your conditions of playing "balanced" and not simply "reflect immune" build.