Elemental and Physical Reflect Maps

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Xuxticieru wrote:

Why this still exist? makes no sense at all. A map to kill yourself.

For a same reason why any other map mod exists - to make mapping harder and to reward character who can run this mod.

I rarely do reflect immune builds and and I just reroll my map when I get the mod, its annoying only when you corrupt the mod and want to progress you Atlas but then, just do those around and it will eventually drop again especially true this league !

This thread is a classic example of attacking the symptom rather than the cause, Logical right?

Damage has gone out of control well into the multi millions, Certain players who don't calculate these things into their builds are unable to cope or in some cases here it seems Unwilling to deal with losing a few maps to a Vaal orb which only relates to their atlas BONUS and BONUS rewards in general for IIQ/IIR on their maps.

Map mods are a choice, Blood magic for example however instead of being able to mitigate the problem could actually INSTANTLY kill you upon entering your map with certain builds where as reflect is not even close to as severe and if you aren't immune and still choose to run reflect maps/unid maps without proper mitigation and appropriate damage levels this is the risk that comes hand in hand with your reward that you specifically choose.

Secondly it feels like the loss of a single map is something certain users are going to basically rage quit the game over, This is likely due to the recently growing trend of Unresponsive traders especially for maps which in itself is a symptom of the game puking out too much currency thus making low trades worthless to a lot of people to the point they ignore you unless you buy bulk.

I get rather frustrated sometimes trading for a map that wont drop for me or my horizon orbs cant seem to roll, Trading for an hour or even days on end trying to find a single trader willing to give me this map for their listed price and then I'll get mods that are bad for me when trying to do my atlas completion, But i adapt for that map and if someone is not willing to even try to adapt, well you're gonna die.

Attack the Cause or the Symptoms shall not cease but only continue to get worse, Try to rally support behind scaling damage back down to a reasonable level, Rally support for reducing the currency vomit that creates these AFK troll traders who cant be bothered to sell you items for what they listed them for.

^this would do a lot more for the problems you are experiencing, If we did it the way a few posts here describe by removing reflect entirely you would make many unique items, passive tree nodes, and ascendancy's pointless, And I'm pretty sure GGG isn't going to alienate a large portion of their user base because certain users are mad they cant run a handful of maps out of hundreds.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

This thread is a classic example of attacking the symptom rather than the cause, Logical right?

Damage has gone out of control well into the multi millions, Certain players who don't calculate these things into their builds are unable to cope.

Secondly it feels like the loss of a single map is something certain users are going to basically rage quit the game over, This is likely due to the recently growing trend of AFK traders especially for maps which in itself is a symptom of the game puking out too much currency thus making low trades worthless to a lot of people to the point they ignore you unless you buy bulk.

Attack the Cause or the Symptoms shall not cease but only continue to get worse.

Too late to complain about damage numbers. That's one thing guaranteed not to change.

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

Too late to complain about damage numbers. That's one thing guaranteed not to change.

That is the hilarious part of this though, Removing reflect is less likely to happen than the damage numbers being scaled back.

If nobody is willing to attack the root cause then perhaps a better direction would be to request GGG buff some of the mitigation sources in the skill tree and on items, Though that might require some of the users are actually using ANY of these items/nodes in the first place which it is quite clear some are not using any at all.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

Too late to complain about damage numbers. That's one thing guaranteed not to change.

That is the hilarious part of this though, Removing reflect is less likely to happen than the damage numbers being scaled back.

How so? Damage numbers haven't been scaled back all that much ever since Perandus, but they have removed BM from map mod pool. That makes one precedent for removing map mods after people complained enough; no precedents at all regarding DPS numbers (meta changes don't count), for which there's been plenty of complaints over the years as well.

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

How so? Damage numbers haven't been scaled back all that much ever since Perandus, but they have removed BM from map mod pool. That makes one precedent for removing map mods after people complained enough; no precedents at all regarding DPS numbers (meta changes don't count), for which there's been plenty of complaints over the years as well.

Blood magic was causing people to spawn into a map dead basically, And again there are next to zero countermeasures against that one.

But say that they did remove reflect from the map pool, where then would you encounter reflect of any kind, what would happen to all of the items with reflect mitigation, ascendancy's and skill tree nodes?

^so what would you do with all of that.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Blood magic was causing people to spawn into a map dead basically, And again there are next to zero countermeasures against that one.

There aren't any against reflect either, for the immense majority of builds. Either you're immune, or you die, none of that anti reflect gear makes any difference when even 1% of the damage reflected can kill you instantly nowadays.

The whole mechanic could be reworked into something less binary, like "retalliation", so monsters would fling back projectiles (slowed down), and you could sidestep to avoid them if you paid attention.
Melee damage reflection would make them perform a somewhat slow counter animation, which you could also avoid by moving.
In either case, the damage would be based on the monster's own, not yours, so you don't get oneshot if anything at all connects.

All the existing equipment and node bonuses, would continue to reduce this retaliation damage.


There are much simpler ways too, like making reflect remove a percentage of your HP. Of course it would be much better to tone down the numbers globally, since the power creep is out of control, but that won't happen.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Blood magic was causing people to spawn into a map dead basically, And again there are next to zero countermeasures against that one.

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Raudram wrote:

There aren't any against reflect either, for the immense majority of builds. Either you're immune, or you die, none of that anti reflect gear makes any difference when even 1% of the damage reflected can kill you instantly nowadays.

That's clearly not true, see the below quote.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Uh, No? Ash, Frost and Storm reduces elemental damage reflected to you by 20%, Primeval Force 10% reduced reflected elemental damage, Master of Force 20% reduced physical damage taken

Then there's items like Sibyl's Lament which has 40% Elemental or Physical damage reflected reduction.

Several of my self-cast elemental builds that did not have immunity this league were viable even in reflect maps WITHOUT any form of mitigation though i would die on rare occasion because i was blindly jamming maps into my map device without checking the mods(which is the users fault) if i had actually used any of the available mitigation nodes and items i would have been basically just fine and its doubtful that most of my deaths would have ever happened outside of masses of legion monsters and guess what, Thats a choice you have to make for yourself, If you know you are going to die running the map, don't run it.

There are certain map mo ds on my build that i wont run when it has no-regen because my build is heavily based off sustain in regeneration.

I find it hilarious that anyone attempting to argue for removing reflect refuses to comment properly on the insane damage numbers they are running with that are NOT required to complete challenges and all of the base game content, And the content that does benefit quite heavily or perhaps even requires high dps to complete safely outside of the 4 guardians are NOT affected by map modifiers.

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Raudram wrote:

There are much simpler ways too, like making reflect remove a percentage of your HP. Of course it would be much better to tone down the numbers globally, since the power creep is out of control, but that won't happen.

This is probably the first reasonable thing anyone has posted in this thread in argument other than "i instantly die" But doing this would AGAIN allow glass cannons to bypass the mod that is specifically designed to be a detriment to them, It needs more thought put into it.

Vaal orbs are an optional, If a map is unidentified, Identify it.

You are not in any way required to run maps that have been corrupted, If all the mods that cause a build to be unable to run a map were removed this game would be extremely boring.

Bonuses and challenges are extra.

In order to make those fighting for reflect to be removed happy the entire skill tree, ascendancy system, and A LOT more than just a few uniques would almost have to be redesigned completely. <- this 1000% if you cant understand it then i don't know what to tell you as there is literally nothing i could say to make you understand because your mind is already made up and you wont budge an inch.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

How so? Damage numbers haven't been scaled back all that much ever since Perandus, but they have removed BM from map mod pool. That makes one precedent for removing map mods after people complained enough; no precedents at all regarding DPS numbers (meta changes don't count), for which there's been plenty of complaints over the years as well.

Blood magic was causing people to spawn into a map dead basically, And again there are next to zero countermeasures against that one.

But say that they did remove reflect from the map pool, where then would you encounter reflect of any kind, what would happen to all of the items with reflect mitigation, ascendancy's and skill tree nodes?

^so what would you do with all of that.

Just like reflect, people can avoid running BM maps.

If I forget to remove my auto-curse Vulnerability, I will rip myself in well less than a second against Atziri's normal form even buffless. Atziri has 2% reflect, I deal around 400k dps without buffs. If you don't have at least 100-200k dps on your character, you're not running red maps in any enjoyable fashion.

Maps have 18% reflect. That's nine times Atziri reflect, and you also get reflected by multiple targets at once. Charges and flasks as defensive measures don't count, as no counter for Nullifiers exists.

If you think having <100k dps is acceptable, you don't even play red maps, and if you claim that reflect is survivable without 100% negation at >100k dps, you're gonna need to provide some proof.

All non-immunity reflect mods are pointless. Back when reflect aura rares were a thing, I'd get myself killed in three hits with <20k dps.