Elemental and Physical Reflect Maps

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Fruz wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Well here's to hoping they try to work it out, But say they did remove it entirely what then would be the detriment for the glass cannon players, porcupines?

At the moment, it isn't a detriment for glass canons ... it's a detriment for all high dps non-immune builds so ....

Porcupines is one mechanic that does punish glass canons indeed, I'm pretty sure that Ele/Physical torns is also deadlier to those, some specific mobs or layout are also detrimental to glass canons.

I'm all for putting more things that encourage building defenses rather than going glass canon, but at the moment reflect is not filling that purpose, it just punishes (somewhat) high dps on-hit non immune builds.

It's not even about high dps builds. Any setup can easily break 100k dps nowadays, or come very close to it anyway. That's more than enough to get oneself killed in reflect maps.

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I used to be pro-reflect but with endgame dps requirements, especially after blue/rare hp raise, I just can't justify its existence anymore. I want to, but even I skip reflect despite running all other mods and mod combos.

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Fruz wrote:

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SisterBlister wrote:

I agree that in the current game it's a mean mod, but as Symph wrote, there are ways to mmitigate it and you can always reroll that map.

STOP with this BS please.
Ways to mitigate it ?
Can you say that without being ashamed at all ?

Yes. If I really feel the need to run a reflect map on my current main (who is not reflect immune), I just swap out one of my damage supports for leech/lgoh and play carefully. And yes, I do run the occasional reflect map. I just can't faceroll it.

Now what?

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

I used to be pro-reflect but with endgame dps requirements, especially after blue/rare hp raise, I just can't justify its existence anymore. I want to, but even I skip reflect despite running all other mods and mod combos.

That is true and I also usually avoid running reflect maps. But the better solution would not be to remove reflect, but rather to reign in the ridiculous damage numbers on both the player- and monster sides. Dmg values have increased about 100-fold since I started playing, EHP only about 2-fold. Obviously this can't work without a serious look at reflect mechanics.

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

It's not even about high dps builds. Any setup can easily break 100k dps nowadays, or come very close to it anyway. That's more than enough to get oneself killed in reflect maps.

Yeah that's why I added the (somewhat) afterwards.

I also used to advocate for reflect, a long time ago, when it made some sense.
It clearly doesn't anymore.

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SisterBlister wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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SisterBlister wrote:

I agree that in the current game it's a mean mod, but as Symph wrote, there are ways to mmitigate it and you can always reroll that map.

STOP with this BS please.
Ways to mitigate it ?
Can you say that without being ashamed at all ?

Yes. If I really feel the need to run a reflect map on my current main (who is not reflect immune), I just swap out one of my damage supports for leech/lgoh and play carefully. And yes, I do run the occasional reflect map. I just can't faceroll it.

Now what?

It merely means that you are running a low dps build, or a build partly immune to reflect, or just a pretty poorly optimized setup.

So, sorry for not taking such a case as a balance standard.

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SisterBlister wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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Xuxticieru wrote:

Why this still exist? makes no sense at all. A map to kill yourself.

Player's damage has been increasing, increasing and increasing and reflect is still there with the same values, making unid maps potentially extremely deadly...

I agree that in the current game it's a mean mod, but as Symph wrote, there are ways to mmitigate it and you can always reroll that map.

That said, my solution would be to add more reflect at lower values and lower the DPS required across the board. It used to be that way and glass cannons (with 50k DPS or whatever was the bomb back then) would occasionally kill themselves while more balanced characters could survive the occasional reflect and still clear the maps.

Some kind of reflect would be the solution to all the balance issues this game has. It just shouldn't exist while hundreds of thousands of DPS are required because some hard hitters have literally millions of HP.

But i think OP addressed exactly this issue - you either not do this mod because its impossible to survive a single ht, or you just immune to it, and you don't give a fuck. The point of reflect mod to exist is gone. In either ways you don't interact with it.

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maxkardinal wrote:

But i think OP addressed exactly this issue - you either not do this mod because its impossible to survive a single ht, or you just immune to it, and you don't give a fuck. The point of reflect mod to exist is gone. In either ways you don't interact with it.

There wasn't any point even back then, you either had instant leech or you died instantly. Which is hilarious because vaal pact was a staple of glass cannon builds this "mechanic" supposedly tried to fight.

Since previous person i was talking with seems to be nothing more than a troll my question is open for everybody.

Here is math:
Theoretical reduction of damage: 80% (increased from 75% from my previous post).
Life leech restrictions: ignored
Life value: 8k
Reflect value: 15%

Theoretical max damage per second (total): 8k : (1/5) : 0,15 = ~266k -1

Let's pretend we also have 90% reduced effect of reflect damage
Theoretical max damage per second (total): = ~2,66kk -1

Since we are talking about mapping build we have to include monsters here

Max damage you can deal per second without insta killing yourself (per mob); no reduced reflect effect // 90% reduced reflect damage taken

20 mobs: 13,3k // 133k
40 mobs: 6,65k // 66,5k
80 mobs: 3,325k // 33,25k
100 mobs (legion?): 2,66k // 26,6k

Anybody willing to tell me how do you enjoy playing build that deal 26,6k dps (interacting with legion mechanic without insta killing yourself. Dealing with monster damage is another question but lets ignore it here).
I mean what can you achive with such a build? In ssf, fresh start it's not a problem to have double or even triple this value in late acts. Can you deal with anything above white maps? How long it takes to clear a white map?

Your HP value is also much higher than what most life builds can achieve. Make it 5.5~7k for a good measure.

I'm thinking that reflect on maps are still in the game for two reasons:

1) They probably see reflect as a classic staple and want to still have it in the game in some form.

2) There isn't really anything that can replace it right now. No leech or no regen are probably the next closest thing but those are just a change in flasks away from being doable.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

You quoted the one part of my post which was posing a pretty specific question, Which you did not answer, You even applied bold to it.

Because I don't care about any part of shity 'mechanic'. They must remove reflect completely and change any kind of interraction with this shit to something else. For example, chance to not trigger mortars, that can be wery deadly on well rolled red tier maps where you actually can't see anything on the screen during the battle.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Since when is this a problem in normal atziri? If you're doing a face+keyboard aoe build then perhaps working as intended

She has passive reflect in any phase. I have 6500 HP and can kill myself faster than she change phase. And yes she change her phases very quickly.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Anyway how about proposing some actual means to modify reflect modifier rather than expecting GGG to completely overhaul half the game because a small percentage of players can not occasionally run a map.

Half of the game? How about 1%, maybe. Because story line have no reflect. It's only one mod on map that nobody who can't deal with that just not run.

Also, any other mods can't kill you just because they rolled. No regen can be runned even on build with small amounght of life leech - we have life and mana flasks. Cutted resistances also can't kill you just because rolled on map - you must recieve damage from mobs on the first place.

Reflect kills you every time with no effort from monsters side.