Elemental and Physical Reflect Maps

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Fruz wrote:

It merely means that you are running a low dps build, or a build partly immune to reflect, or just a pretty poorly optimized setup.
So, sorry for not taking such a case as a balance standard.

Well, look who drank too much of GGG's zoom-zoom coolaid.
My build can survive it, yours can't and you consider yours better optimized than mine? Think about the difference between "optimized" and "maximized". Getting that extra DPS when you anyway one-shot them all is not exactly a good use of your skill points...

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SisterBlister wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

It merely means that you are running a low dps build, or a build partly immune to reflect, or just a pretty poorly optimized setup.
So, sorry for not taking such a case as a balance standard.

Well, look who drank too much of GGG's zoom-zoom coolaid.
My build can survive it, yours can't and you consider yours better optimized than mine? Think about the difference between "optimized" and "maximized". Getting that extra DPS when you anyway one-shot them all is not exactly a good use of your skill points...

My current build survives reflect ( because the 'on-hit' part of the damage is not the main source ), simply because it's mostly immune to it.

Do you one shot map bosses ?
Of course you don't, I suspect you don't even one shot blue mobs so ...

It makes sense that you never reached shaper I guess then, if you're gimping your character in a way that makes them survive reflect and take 15 mins to run a single map (30mins if it has reflect ? I suspect even such a low dps build needs to take little packs by little packs, unable to deal with high density/beyond maps all together).

It is true that by GGG's zoom-zoom standards, my build is slow. Compared to POE years ago or many other ARPGs, it is crazy fast.
I prefer tanky to fast, so sue me.

The point here is that I don't think reflect should go. GGG should rather make better use of this mechanic as a way to prevent the game speeding up ever more. In some podcast Chris sounded unhappy about the "speed meta", and the introduction of boss phases and the buffs to rare's life seem to reflect (haha) this attitude.
Obviously if you need millions of DPS for end-game content, reflect at any significant percentage is silly. But that's not a problem of reflect, it's a problem with the first part: The need for millions of DPS.

And yes, in "normal" mapping, reflect is OK. You do have many options to deal with it:
1. Skip it. Reroll or sell the map. Or give it to one of your other chars, just like you don't expect a mapper to be great lab farmer.
2. Use any of the reflect immune mechanics: Totems, traps, specific ascendancies or items/skill points.
3. Tone down your damage for normal mapping. Use more AoE or leech or IIR or whatever in some of the support gem slots and only change to full mental DPS mode for those few super hard bosses. All other monsters require only a few percent of these boss-DPS.

Especially no. 3 is possible for literally everyone struggling with reflect. But I guess it's easier to ask for futher game play trivialization then it is to adjust to dangerous mechanics? What a uniquely POE-esque way to look at a game. But then don't complain about power creep, either.

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Xuxticieru wrote:

So your solution is change your build, class, items and skills just to survive a simple mod of a map. Even if you reduce reflected damage taken by 40% or whatever, you still kill yourself. The mod should be named "You will die" instead. I believe 95% of people just never do reflect maps.

No his solution is to create the build already taking into account the reflect (it is easy you know, just use POB) or just stop complaining because you bring a Ferrari into a destruction derby race.

1chaos to change the map mods... 1 CHAOS.

double

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Raudram wrote:

Your HP value is also much higher than what most life builds can achieve. Make it 5.5~7k for a good measure.

I tried to get some answers by creating very favourable conditions towards dealing with reflect. However...
Seems like nobody of those who claim that a little optimization is enough to reliably deal with reflect is interested in answering question how do they enjoy playing build that is capable of dealing ~26,6k -1 dps per target at most.

I mean if all conditions are perfect your potential damage (total) is 2,66kk -1 without insta killing yourself (we pretend here that you leech 100% of your max life per second). Given rare monsters hp buff I believe 400-500k is minimum to kinda "enjoy" gameplay without feeling that you have to spam button for minutes to kill one mob. This means with some "adjustments" (adjustments = trashing your build to the point you can attack as little targets at once as possible) there is chance you can potentialy complete red maps.

But the question here is it even possible to try to justify existence of such a bad build? I mean, it is guaranteed that there are people here with strange fetish to play bad and slow builds, and less they can kill results in more fun for them. However is it possible for such a build even to survive pack of mobs? Killing only few mobs at once is one thing but there are still other enemies around that attack you. Block can help here for sure but how much it would actually cost to purchase gear crazy high defensive values (armour, +max endurance charges; phys reflect) or +max ele resist (ele reflect), crazy high life rolls and top reduced effect of reflect.

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Head_Less wrote:

No his solution is to create the build already taking into account the reflect (it is easy you know, just use POB) or just stop complaining because you bring a Ferrari into a destruction derby race.

1chaos to change the map mods... 1 CHAOS.

Such a build at top potential can deal 26,6k dps per second.
Here is math from one of my previous posts

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Because the balance team has no clue what they are doing.

Uh, No? Ash, Frost and Storm reduces elemental damage reflected to you by 20%, Primeval Force 10% reduced reflected elemental damage, Master of Force 20% reduced physical damage taken

Scion can ascend into the Elementalist Immunity to reflected elemental damage, Slayer immunity to reflected Physical, Assassins Immunity to reflected damage from Critical Strikes.

...

Umm, why repeating the same solution twice at beginning of your write-up?

Anyway, immunity to reflected damage via Ascendancy would be viable solution as long as every class & ascendancy had a node that would grant you such immunity. Since it is currently only limited to 2 classes + Ascendant it is not a viable solution. Gearing against reflect is another option but it is even more futile--gear providing reduced damage taken is sparse and of poor quality.

Largest problem with reflect is how binary it is. You either are immune to reflect and do not care about it or you are not immune and you can not do such map mod.

Perfect illustration how stupid map reflect mods are is Atziri. Atziri has built in 2% damage reflection. I can not do Atziri on my Cyclone Champion as I near instantly kill myself through my pots, leech, pantheon and defenses. I have to remove 1 damage support to replace it with Life gained on Hit and I still can only attack for very short amount of time otherwise I kill myself.
All this trouble while goin against 2% damage reflect, now imagine how impossible it is to play map mods that are 13%, 15% and 18% depending, which map tier you are at.
It is absolutely binary, can or can not do situation because the effort to mitigate reflect is absolutely not worth it or outright impossible.

You can argue damage reflect on maps is still there to represent currency sink but even that argument is less and less feasible these days. We are trading in Chaos and Exalts these days while currency to roll maps consists of alchemy orbs, scour orbs, chisels and Vaal orbs. You can always trade one currency for another but considering how volatile market is, how user unfriendly trading in PoE is and the need for map crafting currency, I simply prefer to keep trading and mapping currency separate.

Damage reflect on monsters was removed from the game in 3.1 I believe, which was one of the best updates to the game since it was released. The fact GGG has left damage reflect map mods in is confusing because the same reasoning to remove it from monsters applies to map mods as well.

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SisterBlister wrote:

I prefer tanky to fast, so sue me.

Me too, and the build I mentioned earlier has quite low dps while being pretty tanky already, on top of that not all of it was on hit damage (it was using deadly ailment for bleeding).

It still instantly killed itself on reflect.

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SisterBlister wrote:

The point here is that I don't think reflect should go. GGG should rather make better use of this mechanic as a way to prevent the game speeding up ever more. In some podcast Chris sounded unhappy about the "speed meta", and the introduction of boss phases and the buffs to rare's life seem to reflect (haha) this attitude.
Obviously if you need millions of DPS for end-game content, reflect at any significant percentage is silly. But that's not a problem of reflect, it's a problem with the first part: The need for millions of DPS.

There is no going back though, I can't see GGG do it ever.

The power disparity in the current PoE is too big, if anything reflect should limit top end build, not screw anything not immune to it that has a correct dps anyway but ... it just cannot go anywhere now, it just cannot fit the game as it is in its current state.

Sure, nerfing the %reflected damage might be a good thing, but that isn't going to fix the whole problem, reflect is not slowing builds down, that really not what it is doing.

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SisterBlister wrote:

And yes, in "normal" mapping, reflect is OK. You do have many options to deal with it:
1. Skip it. Reroll or sell the map. Or give it to one of your other chars, just like you don't expect a mapper to be great lab farmer.
2. Use any of the reflect immune mechanics: Totems, traps, specific ascendancies or items/skill points.
3. Tone down your damage for normal mapping. Use more AoE or leech or IIR or whatever in some of the support gem slots and only change to full mental DPS mode for those few super hard bosses. All other monsters require only a few percent of these boss-DPS.

1. And unid maps ? Let's not run them or need to spend time throwing a totem to check every single unid map to not instantly kill a character that isn't immune to reflect ?
No, that's plain stupid imo, sorry.

2. so either your build is already immune to it, or you just completely change the playstyle for one mod ? It's not just "adapting", going from self casting to using a totem is ... pretty silly concerning how much builds invest into specific setups to begin with, and self casters might not enjoy playing with totems/traps either for example.

3. Using increased AOE instead of damage might be just even deadlier against reflect .... No, often it is an order of magnitude where removing 2 supports won't just change the outcome.

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SisterBlister wrote:

Especially no. 3 is possible for literally everyone struggling with reflect. But I guess it's easier to ask for futher game play trivialization then it is to adjust to dangerous mechanics? What a uniquely POE-esque way to look at a game. But then don't complain about power creep, either.

We told you that it's a fairytale that pro-reflect people who don't really know what it implies tell themselves.
Check the maths given in this thread, NO, taking the pantheon power isn't anything like enough, no swapping one ring (because who needs a ring to cap resistances and other stuff right ? /s) for that one mod (and swapping it in every unid map just in case too ?) isn't realistic, neither enjoyable, it's just stupid.
The damage values on the player side are too high, because the game is pushing players to have such values because some things need quite high dps to begin with.

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Fruz wrote:

We told you that it's a fairytale that pro-reflect people who don't really know what it implies tell themselves.
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I wonder what is really motivating these people to argue for damage reflect mechanics. Damage reflect does not make the game harder, more demanding on player's skill or attention, it is simple 0/1 check.

Suggestion to reduce your damage output for mapping is ridiculous and also false in Legion. Players have limited control about how much and how we deliver damage our characters deal. One way to limit our damage output is to switch damage supports for utility support gems but there is nothing that would even remotely offset / negate loss of damage support or neutralize impact of damage reflect--no single support gem will offset map damage reflect mod.

3.7 also brought with it significant buffs to magic, rare and unique monster HP. In addition to above buff to monster HP, we also have Legion monsters, which are part of every map/area. Legion monsters are very beefy and deal absurd amount of damage at higher map tiers. The only way to deal with them is to obliterate them before something hits you, and often kills you.

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karoollll2534 wrote:

Such a build at top potential can deal 26,6k dps per second.
Here is math from one of my previous posts

Spoiler

Theoretical reduction of damage: 80% (increased from 75% from my previous post).
Life leech restrictions: ignored
Life value: 8k
Reflect value: 15%

Theoretical max damage per second (total): 8k : (1/5) : 0,15 = ~266k -1

Let's pretend we also have 90% reduced effect of reflect damage
Theoretical max damage per second (total): = ~2,66kk -1

Since we are talking about mapping build we have to include monsters here

Max damage you can deal per second without insta killing yourself (per mob); no reduced reflect effect // 90% reduced reflect damage taken

20 mobs: 13,3k // 133k
40 mobs: 6,65k // 66,5k
80 mobs: 3,325k // 33,25k
100 mobs (legion?): 2,66k // 26,6k

this would imply you use all of those nods and not decide a mix of reduced reflect nods + swap of gems (swap phy to light VS phy reflect maps for example)

Melee-casters can also use totems when the map mods is not favorable. Sure all this means you get slow clear speed but if you decide to play this map instead of re-rolling then you need to adapt.