Elemental and Physical Reflect Maps

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Because the balance team has no clue what they are doing.

Uh, No? Ash, Frost and Storm reduces elemental damage reflected to you by 20%, Primeval Force 10% reduced reflected elemental damage, Master of Force 20% reduced physical damage taken

Right, so let's just gimp all characters that are not immune to reflect and call it balance, right ?
/s

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Assassins Opportunistic which gives immunity to all reflected damage from critical strikes.

AMAZING, so on a (high dps) crit build, you only one shot yourself when you don't crit, I guess it's fine then, right ?
/s

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SilentSymphony wrote:

But oh wait, i don't want to play these classes? ok use totems on chieftain or heriophant, Not good enough? Use traps or Minions other than Raise Spectre, If none of that works for you there's always currency flipping or becoming an aura-slave.

That's the whole freaking point, either the archetype is immune to reflect, or you don't run unid maps, great design here ...

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Nobody needs 1million dps to clear all the content in the game, This is purely a choice, GGG isnt forcing anyone to make bad builds, And that's just a few examples of which there are plenty more.

lol, the irony!
Well optimized builds ARE the ones that suffer the most from reflect ( assuming a non-reflect-immune type of build), GGG IS forcing builds to deal ridiculous amount of damage to tackle the highest content, shaper/UElder are clear dps checks ...

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Xuxticieru wrote:

So your solution is change your build, class, items and skills just to survive a simple mod of a map. Even if you reduce reflected damage taken by 40% or whatever, you still kill yourself. The mod should be named "You will die" instead. I believe 95% of people just never do reflect maps.

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karoollll2534 wrote:

-max res, armour or cannot regen life is example of risk vs reward.
Reflect is either you play dot / 100% immune or you die. This is not risk vs reward, this is example of guaranteed death.

Exactly, it's as simple as that.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Reroll the map then? Are there not a ton of mods that you can run that don't end up in you dying? Many of those mods can be very detrimental to other builds.

It's not "very detrimental" here, it's = RIP.
that's it, it's over.

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SisterBlister wrote:

I agree that in the current game it's a mean mod, but as Symph wrote, there are ways to mmitigate it and you can always reroll that map.

STOP with this BS please.
Ways to mitigate it ?
Can you say that without being ashamed at all ?
High dps builds can one shot themselves on reflect with less than half the damage they deal, for some I'm pretty sure that even a 10th of their damage is enough.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

You're dealing too much damage for the amount of life, resistances and other forms of mitigation, pretty simple here.

Please, if you really know so little about the topic, restrain yourself and don't come and spread such nonsense.


I had a character with 50% evade, 50% dodge, 30%+ block, lightning coil, ~10k armour, 6k+ life, pure physical spectral shield throw with ~50k dps I think (not per hit, it had somewhat high attack speed, crimson dance so bleeding damage, not full on-hit dmg type of build)

Guess what happened the moment I threw a shield in a map with reflect and it hit a pack ?
The character got instantly thrown to the standard league, it got killed instantly, there was nothing that I could have done apart from just not running reflect.

Not a high dps character.
Pretty tanky character overall, was running red maps comfortably and could make mistakes without being destroyed, and that was back in incursion.


No, if you really think that killing oneself on reflect just means that there were not enough defenses on the character, then it merely means that you don't know how to build a proper character that does not take 15 mins to clear a map to begin with.

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SamothD wrote:

I practically don't die to reflect any more because I play unidentified maps with an immune character, but that feels a bit like cheesing the game.

It does feel terrible, doesn't it ?!
Reflect brings nothing positive to the game in its current iteration, it's a ridiculous mechanic that you either skip or rip to, and it makes that if you run unid maps on a non-immune character, either you need to put a totem or something to make sure that it's not a reflect map (else you give it up), or you're going to eventually rip yourself on a reflect map, period.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Plenty of people don't run no-regen maps because they are just as deadly to their setup

My gosh the amount of bad faith here ....
no-regen, "AS DEADLY" as reflect ?
As deadly as something that instantly kills your character ?

No, obviously not.

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Raudram wrote:

It's so you "trade", trying to sell them to somebody who can do it.

I think so too Raudram. Personally i also feel like reflect is an old remnant.

Is reflect needed in the game for some reason now? People used to say it was to limit the power of charachters. But that was when reflect was in the game on random monsters.

I wonder though, how people in ssf deal with reflect maps since they can't trade?
Hc players wouldn't be able to run the zana mods that roll random map mods unless they were immune to reflect? They just ignore those zana mods?

A compromise could be to remove reflect from rolling on zana map mods that reroll maps but still keep it as a normal map mod for trading. Does anyone like that idea?

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SilentSymphony wrote:

But say that they did remove reflect from the map pool, where then would you encounter reflect of any kind, what would happen to all of the items with reflect mitigation, ascendancy's and skill tree nodes?

My berserker can die on normal Atziri even with ring + pantheon (65% reflect reduction). No split phase.

Reflect always was a shit. Now it's just broken, because of uncontrollable damage growth.

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DoEFotGS wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

But say that they did remove reflect from the map pool, where then would you encounter reflect of any kind, what would happen to all of the items with reflect mitigation, ascendancy's and skill tree nodes?

My berserker can die on normal Atziri even with ring + pantheon (65% reflect reduction). No split phase.

Reflect always was a shit. Now it's just broken, because of uncontrollable damage growth.

You quoted the one part of my post which was posing a pretty specific question, Which you did not answer, You even applied bold to it.

Anyway not that I expect anyone defending the argument against reflect in this thread to actually read anything all the way through or consider anything I have to say but here we go again.

Since when is this a problem in normal atziri? If you're doing a face+keyboard aoe build then perhaps working as intended, I've killed her plenty of times on builds with no reflect mitigation and yes i've died a few times but mostly when i'd get a curse reflected back onto me, Even then the times i've been unable to complete the map due to reflect are zero, The times i've been unable to complete it from my build being garbage, too many to count.

Anyway how about proposing some actual means to modify reflect modifier rather than expecting GGG to completely overhaul half the game because a small percentage of players can not occasionally run a map.

I had to run a no regen, -max res and a bunch of other terrible mods Hydra earlier and i died 3 times, once before the boss and twice during, sucks but i chose to run that map instead of rolling another one, As in i had a choice, as does everyone else with maps that can be rolled.

I'm all for some changes to make it less of a 1 shot mechanic but removing it from the game is absolutely absurd, If you're gonna go for that then might as well remove all the mods i don't like too and turn this into a my little pony simulator.

My argument in this topic is 100% against removing it entirely, Come up with solutions to make it work if you don't believe the power creep will ever stop, I'd still prefer to attack the power creep because it would address a lot more issues than just this one mechanic that is now causing some users to be unable to play in the way they want.

The question of what happens to items with anti-reflect mechanisms on them if reflect goes away is a non-issue. Why is that even being raised?

Anti-reflect mods can be removed and then affected items / passives / prestige class skills can be re-evaluated in terms of the remaining modifiers. Problem solved.

If "It would take work to fix that" is a rock solid barrier to change, then what would ever change?

Another hand in the air here for a change to reflect mechanics for map mods to make such damage based on monster stats, instead of player stats. As for why, even if values are re-calibrated for reflect as it currently exists for maps then ongoing power creep would probably move things out of whack again in the future.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I had to run a no regen, -max res and a bunch of other terrible mods Hydra earlier and i died 3 times, once before the boss and twice during, sucks but i chose to run that map instead of rolling another one, As in i had a choice, as does everyone else with maps that can be rolled.

Please STOP with the same nonsensical stuff over and over -___-.

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karoollll2534 wrote:

-max res, armour or cannot regen life is example of risk vs reward.
Reflect is either you play dot / 100% immune or you die. This is not risk vs reward, this is example of guaranteed death.

HINT : I bolded AND underlined the relevant part.

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Fruz wrote:

Please STOP with the same nonsensical stuff over and over -___-.

Removing a mod that is so heavily integrated into the skill tree, Ascendancy and items makes no sense to me, Would you remove it from the atziri fight too since that guy a few posts up died in the fight lol?

I'm 100% for GGG making reflect come in line with other mods while still punishing a glass cannon as that's kind of the point of it, I'll fight to the death to keep it in the game.

I'm arguing against removing the mod entirely, surely you can come up with some changes that would take this in the right direction other than slamming the delete key on it.

I would have no reason to post in this thread if this were the case other than saying i agree, it needs to be fixed or that i simply agree with your solution.

And at the no-regen and -res arent almost a garunteed death then you've never played a build that relies as heavily on said sustain and been nearly 1 shot or literally 1 shot by monsters in a red map with these mods, 8.3k life, overcapped res, 18k armour is above average by a lot.

Just because its not happening every single time i get hit does not mean it does not happen about as frequently as some of you get that reflect mod in the first place.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Removing a mod that is so heavily integrated into the skill tree

Those mods are recent additions, it's not "heavily integrated".

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SilenSymphony wrote:

I'm arguing against removing the mod entirely, If you as experienced as you are claiming to be here surely you can come up with some changes that would take this in the right direction.

You cannot have it balanced around playing damage without hardcaps given the current state of the game.

Because if it adds some risk for a 1000k dps build, then it will be stupidly deadly for a 5000k build and pretty much meaningless for all other builds < 500k dps

You just cannot have it just scale on player damage, it just does not work anymore.

They already reworked lightning torns into ele/phys torns that work completely different and do not scale on player's attack speed/cast speed as it was out of control.
Somehow, they kept reflect without change ...

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Fruz wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Removing a mod that is so heavily integrated into the skill tree

Those mods are recent additions, it's not "heavily integrated".

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SilenSymphony wrote:

I'm arguing against removing the mod entirely, If you as experienced as you are claiming to be here surely you can come up with some changes that would take this in the right direction.

You cannot have it balanced around playing damage without hardcaps given the current state of the game.

Because if it adds some risk for a 1000k dps build, then it will be stupidly deadly for a 5000k build and pretty much meaningless for all other builds < 500k dps

You just cannot have it just scale on player damage, it just does not work anymore.

They already reworked lightning torns into ele/phys torns that work completely different and do not scale on player's attack speed/cast speed as it was out of control.
Somehow, they kept reflect without change ...

Well here's to hoping they try to work it out, But say they did remove it entirely what then would be the detriment for the glass cannon players, porcupines?

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Well here's to hoping they try to work it out, But say they did remove it entirely what then would be the detriment for the glass cannon players, porcupines?

At the moment, it isn't a detriment for glass canons ... it's a detriment for all high dps non-immune builds so ....

Porcupines is one mechanic that does punish glass canons indeed, I'm pretty sure that Ele/Physical torns is also deadlier to those, some specific mobs or layout are also detrimental to glass canons.

I'm all for putting more things that encourage building defenses rather than going glass canon, but at the moment reflect is not filling that purpose, it just punishes (somewhat) high dps on-hit non immune builds.